Question How does alternate policy work at LL

F

footlogicracing

PR Addict
I have emailed Danmxsports but have not received an answer as to how it works. How do you get a number. When you get there and for some reason guys dont sign up prior to race day do they then select alternates. If someone is hurt during practice or in another class can you go in as alternate. Never been there as an alternate so just don't know. Any info would be greatly appreciated.
 
It's a little different than it was a few years ago, but as I understand it, there are 2 ways to get into Loretta Lynn's as an alternate once you get down there:

1. Check in for the week ends on Monday morning at 10am, and any guaranteed riders that haven't shown up (and not informed MX Sports that they won't be showing up)by then are removed from the program and alternates are placed in their spots. This usually doesn't happen as everyone that paid their money and wants to go at that point is going to show up for sign ups (unless a tragic car accident happens on the way).

2. After practice, riders could be hurt in practice and are given Monday to let MX Sports know that they are withdrawing from the race (they get refund for race fee at that point of $75 / Class). In some cases, 1st timers there that are in 2 classes realize that the heat and course are difficult and they may only due 1 class and drop 1 (probably not in 450A).

The rules state that they will not add any alternates after Monday..... so let's say a guy is in 2 classes and gets hurt in his first moto of class 1, he won't line up for class 2 he's in and there's an empty spot...... they will not add 1st alternate after Monday evening even though there is a spot.

So basically to get in once you are at the ranch on the alternate list, you have to hope for an injury in practice that is definite week ender for competitors, or someone that has car malfunction on the way down and doesn't make it to the ranch. I've gotten in on Monday before after practice based on a guy dropping out after practice because it was too hot and he felt like 2 classes would be too much.
 
Thankyou. I wonder why they won't put you in if the rider just doesn't show up for his race. I would think that if you are down there on the line ready to go they would be happy to throw you in. Is that what they used to do ? So you don't know what you do for a number? The number on Chris's bike is his pro number 838 and they don't allow 3 digit numbers.There is already a 38 in pro sport (which is Chris's number in 2 stroke). Could we strike out the 3 and be 88? There is no 88 in pro sport.
How did you get so good at all these rules. Seems you should get paid for all this wealth of information. I never understood how the power ranking went until I say it posted here. Since then I did a complete study of all the alternates and found a 2 guys on the alternate list that have higher numbers than one that is actually on the list. I don't feel it is my place however to say anything. It wouldn't help us out one way or the other. I am sure that most of the riders wouldn't take the time to scour that list the way I did. It took me quite some time but I found it interesting and it gave me a better understanding of how it all works. Kind of funny that we have been there twice and reallty didn 't understand all this.
 
This is what happened once and hence the rule change..... they used to put guys in at the last second if every gate was not filled in the 1st moto..... and let the alternates race and fill those last spots. At some point, someone either broke their bike or something in another class and DNS the 1st moto and they placed an alternate, then the rider got parts for his bike and 2 days later went to ride his second moto with a DNS score in the 1st and there was no room as they put an alternate in..... which made a mess. Now they won't add alternates unless a rider withdraws officially with MXSports.

As for #'s, they'll work with you for what is easy to update. IN 2008, I got in last second in Vet B and was #63 in +35 but that was taken in Vet B. They let me be #68 in Vet B and I added black electrical tape, a little razor blade work, and perfect 8 from a 3 that I added / took off between classes. They print up a new bib for you at the Moto Tees trailer with the other # and you have to remember to switch bibs and plates between motos. I say make him 88 in Pro Sport if he gets in and add a little electrical tape, you can't even tell unless you're 3 feet away.

As for the rules, there are some other things that do factor in besides RPV in the fine print. They also overrule RPV based on entries from certain parts of the country. This is where they guarantee that at least 50% of the guaranteed spots are filled by riders from that region first (ahead of RPV value ranking.) So if Southwest Regional is guaranteed 5 spots at Loretta's but only has 8 riders..... that means the alternates have terrible RPV's and no chance of getting in as alternate. BUT, if only 2 of the 5 spots are taken by guaranteed riders, the 6th place guy from Southwest gets in to get at least 50% of the riders from SouthWest into the show (ahead of the 10th place of 55 riders at Red Bud) since they want the whole country represented at the national.

I pay attention and have a knack for remembering the rules. Bruce B is better at it than I am, but I'm pretty good about knowing what's what for Loretta Lynns.
 
Thankyou,thankyou,thankyou. It does not explain all that when you look up power ranking in their rules. Why can't they explain it better! If I keep this up maybe I will be an expert like you. But then again I still don't understand how you figure all that in. I am not a mathmetician. I hated math and only took general math because it was required. Now ask me about orthotics and I may have the answer.I am terrible at names but ask me what I did on a certain cast (foot cast) and I can tell you exactly what I did. I can look at a cast and tell you if I modified it not. But names ect. Most people I know because they are so and so's parents.
 
RocketRobin said:
Bruce B is better at it than I am, but I'm pretty good about knowing what's what for Loretta Lynns.
Click to expand...

Than you for the compliment, Rocket. You did cover this one very well, except that alternates will be placed until the first moto is on the line.
If a competitor officially withdraws from a class, an alternate will be placed, If someone does not show up for his spot on the gate and does not officially withdraw, no alternate is placed.

Example, let us assume John (pitracer) works his way to first alernate in 30B/C. A racer that is entered in Vet 35 (2nd race of the event) and 30+ B/C gets injured in his first moto of Vet 35 decides to call it a week. If he goes to the MX Sports office and officially withdraws form 30 B/C, John is in. If he does not notify mxsports that he is withdrawing from 30+ B/C, then there is an empty gate.
I have actually heard them call for alternates on Wednesday morning.

bruce
 
There are also rules that are used from MX Sports and their Loretta Lynn's rules or Supplemental rules, as well as the AMA Rulebook which is slightly different in some cases from the MX Sports rules. They are pretty close and try to mimic each other, but as things have come up over the years, rules have been changed. I got bit by a rule change last year, as I always ran bark busters (which were allowed in Mod and Vet Classes until recently) and the referee made me take them off at the starting line before my 2nd practice last year. He said they're illegal for MX racing, and wouldn't let me go out. I had to go borrow tools from Kawasaki Team Green area to take them off to make it out for my practice.

I went to the official Head AMA referee and asked about the rule and he didn't know, after searching many different rule sources he came upon a check sheet from somewhere that specifically said that closed end hand guards made of metal are not allowed, and I changed over to Pitracer's floppy mounting hand flags for the event and ever since. I like bark busters and used them at Loretta's for many years up to and including 2008, but the rule changed and I was caught and shown the rule where they made them illegal. The reasoning is supposedly that if there is a pile up crash, another rider could get his hand / foot stuck in between my bark buster opening and break something....... of course I stated to them that if a guy is diving into small areas of my bike during a race, he's got other problems to worry about than whether or not I have bark busters on!

And Bruce, I know they have put alternates in later than Monday in the past, but the rules they list now say that they WILL NOT place any alternates after Monday....... but I think they still will if someone withdraws completely from the event in a class in order to have 42 if possible on every first gate. But that isn't the way the rule reads right now which is why I worded my response to Footlogic that way.

I was in the +30 class one year when Vince Karnow got hurt in practice and hoped his knee would be better by Wednesday's first moto so he didn't withdraw. He didn't show up for the line and they were announcing over the PA system that year (I think 2005 when Katin won) that if ANY alternate from +30 could get to the line within the next 10 minutes, they'd let them race to fill Vince's empty spot. Alas, it was left empty as no alternates were prepared to show up at the last second and now without an official withdraw, they won't fill that spot.
 
I reread the alternate section of the race procedures and do not see anything about not placing alternates after Monday, I do see #6-Alternates will not be placed until AFTER the close of registration. Rule #7 is the info that I used to interpret as posted above. The wording of rule #7, "Once a class is full, no further Alternates can be placed unless a seeded rider withdraws from the program prior to the start of the first moto of that class., " leads me to believe that they will place alternate until the start of the first moto.


From MXsports race procedue-
B. ALTERNATE PROCEDURE:

1. Alternates not entered in another class must report to the MX Sports Front Gate Office upon arrival at the Ranch to obtain a Facility Permit.
2. All Alternates must attend Rider Registration and register in each class in which they are an Alternate by completing an entry form. Only riders listed on the Alternate Rider List may register.
3. Alternates will receive their rider packet at registration. Alternates will receive their number assignment, race bib, Mechanics Pass and transponder only after they are placed in the program.
4. Only the top 5 registered Alternates may practice with their class. If an Alternate is outside of the top 5 ranked Alternates, he should return at the end of registration to see if he has moved up into the top 5 ranking as a result of no-show Alternates. If so, the Alternate will be issued a practice sticker. Otherwise, Alternates cannot practice and will not be permitted to race.
5. Alternates will be placed based upon a power-ranking calculated by the number of riders at the regional level, i.e., Alternates from regionals with the most riders will be given priority placement (See, Supplemental Rules). A withdrawn rider will not necessarily be replaced by an Alternate from the same regional as the withdrawn rider.
6. Alternates will not be placed until AFTER the close of registration on Monday. An Alternate List will be posted on the MX Sports Results Posting Board adjacent to the race track entrance. As Alternates are placed, their names will be added to the list. Alternates should monitor this posted list closely and report to the MX Sports Race Track Office immediately once their name appears on the list, to receive their number assignment, race bib, Mechanics Pass and transponder.
7. Once a class is full, no further Alternates can be placed unless a seeded rider withdraws from the program prior to the start of the first moto of that class. This means that even if a gate slot is empty on the Start Line of the first moto, we still cannot place an Alternate in that position. Once a rider earns a gate position, it is his gate, and it cannot be given to an Alternate without the rider’s consent, even if the rider fails to race the first moto. A rider may in fact miss the first moto but race the second and thirdmotos. However, after the first moto of a class is run, no Alternates can be placed in that class. We strongly urge seeded riders to withdraw if they are not able to race any of their motos in a class. Riders that can be replaced with an Alternate will receive a refund of their race entry fee.
8. Riders not selected as an Alternate will be refunded their race entry fee. Camping fees will not be refunded if the Alternate attended the event. Refunds will be processed after the event and mailed by September 15th. No refunds will be issued at the event.
 
You're right Bruce, they will still place until the start of the first moto for withdrawals of riders that are in the class. But they will not place any riders unless a rider specifically withdraws....... which is different than it was a few years ago, when they'd give away the open gates at the last second for the first moto to alternates. Now you have to be placed into the class officially by MX Sports prior to first moto when another rider officially withdraws. After 1st moto is started, no alternates will be placed into any class...... so if you are an alternate, you are hoping for injuries to guys in 2 classes that have early motos before your class runs...... and if you are an alternate for one of the very first motos of the week...... your chances are slim after practice is over.

I mis read the #6 section, where Alternates will not be placed UNTIL (Key word) after registration closes on Monday. Practice is already running on Monday morning when registration is still open until 10am for last minute guys showing up...... and they hold the guaranteed spots until Monday at 10:01 AM, if you've not showed up and not gotten ahold of them by now, they assume you aren't coming and give your spot away.
 
OK I think I understand it a little better now. I would think if you were injured during practice it would be in your best interest to officially pull yourself out because then you get a refund of your money should they place an alternate in your spot. Makes it a little tricky with numbers though since it could be a last minute placement.

I really need to meet you guys to personally thank you for all your help. If not at LL then perhaps at the Briarcliff race. God willing we hope to be there.
 
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