More injuries?
- Thread starter ck1racerx
- Start date
KX514
PR Member
When will everyone learn that you are not allowed to have an opinion or a discussion on this site unless you are one of the "big few"? Ck tried to start a healthy conversation about making the sport safer. The reason people can no longer have these discussions on forums is that everyone is a hero behind a keyboard. There are some of you here throwing the idea of making our sport safer out the window by saying "it's motocross, deal with it". What kind of attitude is that? I can think of a few families with permanent injuries to their loved ones that would literally kill to have their sons/daughters/dads/brothers/sisters/etc healthy again. So that's an irresponsible response and we should all be ashamed of the way this conversation has gone. Unless people start checking their ego's at the login on this site, nothing will change. No one will be heard. The other option is that everyone start's acting like a adults. There are ways to have discussions, and as usual, this isn't one of them. Your move.
hershey
PR Elite
Exactly my point. If it were up to you and others there would be NO SAFETY precautions at all. What kind of person would argue that we dont need safety? And what kind of person would argue that people on here are BLAMING anyone for their injuries?
People see red instantly and want to argue instead of standing back and looking at the whole picture. Defensive people are generally insecure people with low self esteem.
Im not a democrat and that mentality isnt what is driving this thread. I dont want too much over sight and certainly dont want too many rules and restrictions. But safety drives every other major sport as well as ours for a reason. To reduce injuries. Why does any care about that? Because if you can reduce injuries then people can continue to play the sport. In our sport this can play a big part in growth. If parents see there is better equipment to protect their children they are more likely to let them ride. If current riders see new better equipment to protect them they will buy it and if they know certain tracks are built better, prepped well and have all around safer layouts then they will attend that track.
So..... Mr Shaefer (got the name right) , stop fretting! Nobody pissed in your Wheaties ever. Stop name calling and tune out of social media if you dont like it. Otherwise stay tuned in and have fun! And the above quote from you says you were calling me out! Adapting is fine, I do all the time. And instead of bitching, why dont you look at it as input for ways to make our sport safer? Its only bitching if you see it that way. I guess I have only seen people say that track designs have an impact on safety form the posts on here. I reread this and dont see one case of some one saying " If that track was built better I wouldnt have gotten hurt. Im suing them! "
Kaiser....Im sure when you return you will still be blistering fast too. But if you knew that a new helmet on the market would completely eliminate concussions in riders wouldnt you buy it? Sure you would. Just like you buy a helmet now that you believe is safe. But why are todays helmets better than the beetle helmets of the 60's and 70's? Why are our boots better than the most famous Hi Point boots of yesteryear? Because riders, manufacturers and sanctioning bodies all want things to be as safe as we can make it while enjoying the sport we love in a manner that doesnt hinder our it. That is the point of this thread. That question has made huge impacts on our sport for the better and made industry leaders in safety equipment. Why the opposition to something that is already in our sport? And for personal responsibility, when is the last time you heard about a track being sued over an injury? Its been years since I have but that doesnt mean it doesnt happen. But Im sure if it has that would shut a track down and we would know. So doesnt one assume these riders are taking responsibility for themselves?
John250
PR Founding Father
The Daytona Amateur SX is a perfect example of Dirt Wurx building a fun safe track. Or even look at the all mighty track in Hurricane Mills TN. They don't build these tracks with 110 foot leaps that if you come up short your in big trouble. They have to build them to handle hundreds of riders of all skill level, and not professionals.
No one has ever said Daytona sucked, or it was too easy. No one has ever said LL was too easy. But yet there are not the type jumps that will get amateurs in big trouble all the time. All are usually a little for giving. Can you get hurt, hell yes. You can get hurt riding in your back yard. But some how they build tracks that produce great racing, and no one ever seems to complain.
But yet we can all name at least one of two local tracks that has built that one leap that you see B or C riders try that you know they should NEVER have tried that jump. But as someone else mentioned here, with todays bikes, they have the power in their right hand, but not the ability to do it.
SX in the 80s and early 90s was great. No one ever said the racing sucked. But go back and watch the races. The speeds we no where near what they are today. The tracks have drastically changed. And think about your favorite National outdoor tracks.....most dont have SX type jumps on them. They have big leaps, but most of those have a middle step that you either go half way, or make the leap.
No one here wants to quit racing or riding. I know what Mike is saying about bitching, some dont like fresh till (Blair), some dont like Mulch (Hershey), some dont like mud (me)......but we all jokingly bitch about it lining up to go have fun and race.
To me, when some of the most serious injuries happen to some of our most talented professionals, it makes you think. How far does the limit have to be pushed to be a great professional sport? As someone else mentioned, the NFL, NHL, NASCAR, have all taken steps to try to limit the serious injury. Not sure the AMA or FIM have done as much.
No one has ever said Daytona sucked, or it was too easy. No one has ever said LL was too easy. But yet there are not the type jumps that will get amateurs in big trouble all the time. All are usually a little for giving. Can you get hurt, hell yes. You can get hurt riding in your back yard. But some how they build tracks that produce great racing, and no one ever seems to complain.
But yet we can all name at least one of two local tracks that has built that one leap that you see B or C riders try that you know they should NEVER have tried that jump. But as someone else mentioned here, with todays bikes, they have the power in their right hand, but not the ability to do it.
SX in the 80s and early 90s was great. No one ever said the racing sucked. But go back and watch the races. The speeds we no where near what they are today. The tracks have drastically changed. And think about your favorite National outdoor tracks.....most dont have SX type jumps on them. They have big leaps, but most of those have a middle step that you either go half way, or make the leap.
No one here wants to quit racing or riding. I know what Mike is saying about bitching, some dont like fresh till (Blair), some dont like Mulch (Hershey), some dont like mud (me)......but we all jokingly bitch about it lining up to go have fun and race.
To me, when some of the most serious injuries happen to some of our most talented professionals, it makes you think. How far does the limit have to be pushed to be a great professional sport? As someone else mentioned, the NFL, NHL, NASCAR, have all taken steps to try to limit the serious injury. Not sure the AMA or FIM have done as much.
KTMkarl794
PR Addict
Sarcasm dude...sarcasm...
BriarcliffMx
PR Founding Father
Ok, everyone gets it. All tracks can be made better. Ok, now we have our tracks as safe as humanly possible, we've dialed all the motorcycles back in power.......Now What? What possible safety equipment could be created to make motocross safer?? Maybe some moon boots with shock absorbers in the soles? Maybe we could develop a super thick neoprene suit that was lightweight and air conditioned to counter act heat of wearing it?? These are great until you get jumped on.
If anyone has real safety equipment suggestions lets here them.
If anyone has real safety equipment suggestions lets here them.
KTMkarl794
PR Addict
We could just make life size drones/robots that we control from the sidelines, that way no one gets hurt, fastest fingers wins.
Well....until Knox starts shooting anyway...
Well....until Knox starts shooting anyway...
ck1racerx
PR Addict
I keep coming back to it because it is the perfect example.. NASCAR. I'm sure some J.O. (just a coincidence) was setting in a meeting one day and suggested making concrete walls "soft". At first thought it sounds impossible and stupid. Then you test idea and find out it works and suddenly its not such a stupid idea. Do I expect a bunch of crazy motocrossers, track owners and promoters to come up with an idea like that, all on there own? NO. But put those same nuts in a room together and maybe, just maybe, moon boots with shock absorbers may work.
If something like that is taking place, GREAT. But I don't see it, so it must not be.
Necessity is the mother of invention. The necessity here is to grow the sport and make it better for ALL involved.
If something like that is taking place, GREAT. But I don't see it, so it must not be.
Necessity is the mother of invention. The necessity here is to grow the sport and make it better for ALL involved.
hershey
PR Elite
You know I love you but you are a hard headed bastard.
Nobody said all tracks can be made better
Nobody said all motorcycles are to powerful
All is an encompassing word.
Riders and parents on here are simply exploring ideas to make what we do safer without sacrificing what we love about the sport.
You want innovation? How about the new 6D helmets? All new shock absorbing design helmet interior. I guess if they had your attitude that company wouldnt have even got off the ground let alone having top pro riders wearing their helmets.
I know its a touchy subject but the same can be said for Leatt and Atlas braces. New technology and innovation.
What about body armor? I know in horse racing they have instant inflatable vests, Im sure someone is trying to find a way to get that technology integrated into MX.
Without innovation many many safety items we take for granted today wouldnt exist, if any of it. Maybe if people had your attitude we would still look like this when racing.....
That includes the bike, without innovation this is what we would be wearing AND riding. Explain to me why on Gods green earth you would want to limit innovation to faster better bikes and not safety?????
jstory
PR Addict
As a rider and the parent of a rider I choose to focus on the things I have control over. The single most important thing I feel any rider can do is learn proper riding technique and control of their motorcycle. Along with that know your limits. I feel like this is one thing that is overlooked by alot of riders and parents of riders. Just because you know how to start a motorcycle and shift the gears doesn't mean you are an expert on a track and especially a track with other riders on it. Do I ride like I did when I was 20 years old? No , simply because I don't ride as often as I used to and don't push the limits. Does my son do things I wish he wouldn't absolutely but I continue to talk to him and try and teach to ride in a way to reduce the risk as much as possible. With that being said there is no way the risk will every be eliminated completely. Which brings us the riding gear and protective apparel. I am sure is some situations certain gear helps and in others it may not. That is a personal decision. I wish there was more reliable independent studies out there to help aid in those decisions. This is an area that could be greatly improved in my mind.
There is no doubt that track design can be a big part of the risk factor. The problem with this is that the safest track at the beginning of the day or even moto for that matter can change drastically during the course of the day/moto. This makes it a very hard thing to predict or control at times. I would love to see data on wrecks that occur on jumps vs. corners or straightaways. I would be willing to bet it would surprise you how many wrecks don't involve large "dangerous" obstacles.
Bike setup and maintenance can help in the control department also. Most riders know that if the suspension is at the least adjusted for your weight and ability it will react better to surprise holes/ bumps that you encounter on a track. I would guess that this is another step that often gets overlooked or at least under appreciated.
If you want my vote for ways to improve safety I am going to say rider training. Simply because if you like to ride different places and types of terrain it will be universal in its application to help you control the bike while also keeping you safe.
There is no doubt that track design can be a big part of the risk factor. The problem with this is that the safest track at the beginning of the day or even moto for that matter can change drastically during the course of the day/moto. This makes it a very hard thing to predict or control at times. I would love to see data on wrecks that occur on jumps vs. corners or straightaways. I would be willing to bet it would surprise you how many wrecks don't involve large "dangerous" obstacles.
Bike setup and maintenance can help in the control department also. Most riders know that if the suspension is at the least adjusted for your weight and ability it will react better to surprise holes/ bumps that you encounter on a track. I would guess that this is another step that often gets overlooked or at least under appreciated.
If you want my vote for ways to improve safety I am going to say rider training. Simply because if you like to ride different places and types of terrain it will be universal in its application to help you control the bike while also keeping you safe.
LuckyStar64
PR Addict
John250. I agree, Malvern is a BEAUTIFUL track. Problem is that the worst crashes seem to happen at random. I definitely agree that if you have a section where riders seem to make mistakes consistently, ya might as well change it up to something else.
We've had these same conversations many times on here, but I'll mention it again.... maybe there needs to be some sort of safety committee that sets some guidelines as to what's more or less dangerous in the sport. IMO-- it would do a few things for the sport. It MAY make event insurance slightly more affordable if the track was "in compliance". It may make the turnouts slightly better too. On the other hand-- it adds a dimension of regulation to the sport, which I could see complicating things. Kinda like "MX for Democrats"-- haha!
When push comes to shove-- staying in one piece is in our own hands. Ya have to use your head, and be honest with yourself where you are skill wise. Just because it's there, ya don't have to try it. If you think a track has a sketch factor, you don't have to race there. Ideally, we SHOULD ride at a pace where we have a little left in reserve in the event that things go to $h!t!! When we're tapped out, and riding on the edge of our limits no matter what obstacle is in front of us-- that's when MX likes to bite us on the @$$! --L*64
We've had these same conversations many times on here, but I'll mention it again.... maybe there needs to be some sort of safety committee that sets some guidelines as to what's more or less dangerous in the sport. IMO-- it would do a few things for the sport. It MAY make event insurance slightly more affordable if the track was "in compliance". It may make the turnouts slightly better too. On the other hand-- it adds a dimension of regulation to the sport, which I could see complicating things. Kinda like "MX for Democrats"-- haha!
When push comes to shove-- staying in one piece is in our own hands. Ya have to use your head, and be honest with yourself where you are skill wise. Just because it's there, ya don't have to try it. If you think a track has a sketch factor, you don't have to race there. Ideally, we SHOULD ride at a pace where we have a little left in reserve in the event that things go to $h!t!! When we're tapped out, and riding on the edge of our limits no matter what obstacle is in front of us-- that's when MX likes to bite us on the @$$! --L*64
Strouble
PR Addict
Good thread overall if you read between the lines and attitudes seeking for TRUTH about Safety in Motocross. For us...we are on a local level; What can we do here?
It is possible for something to be created that can influence our sport in a good way.
Protective gear is better than it ever has been...we really can't ask for nothing better.
Bikes are better than they have ever been...we really can't ask for nothing better.
It's hard to see either bikes or gear improving.
Injuries have always been around (The stakes are higher now a days if you put yourself in the mix because of machines)...Men that CARE about the SPORT and PEOPLE for the RIGHT reasons have done great things for our sport...on and off the track.
One could prolly reason that the development of the machines has lead to the development of tracks for those machines. LL is a prime example of a good track...people (at least 1) have still died there, I would probably attribute those deaths to the level of COMPETITION. Competition changes everything.
(In no particular order.)
1. Asterisk...one of the greatest safety inventions for the Pros. That is one way we can improve our local safety.
2. Track Crew Training
3. Track Promoter Training
4. Rider Training
5. Track Design
If you decide to ride...you are responsible for your actions...no matter the circumstance.
If you own a track...you are responsible for your actions...no matter the circumstances and the accommodation of people and their overall well-being as best you can.
We hold each other accountable.
We work together and get this done.
If you own a track or ride...YOUR MAIN CONCERN SHOULD BE SAFETY BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE SHOULD TAKE PLACE!
We are responsible to each other.
I have and could train an entire track crew and promoter. That's what my number 1 suggestion would be...the track crews; especially since it is more able to be completed at this point. Rider Training is just as important. Second would be a traveling medical staff...at least a couple or few familiar faces. Third is track design (possible hard one to implement due to the Promoter.) Track design is also important as No.1
The Organization and/or Promoter leads the way...safety must be communicated, taught, and upheld regularly. Once leadership is right...the people will follow willingly.
Having good leadership, very good safety abilities, a solid race day structure, fun & safe track, and a clean/practical facility will produce more riders than any swag or light show.
Steve from Kames mentioned once that Malvern has been successful over the years because of location and everyone can ride the track.
From the tracks I have worked...BC has the best safety standards overall as for the Track Crew Operation. Malvern is second best. They both have tons of room for growth for Safety Action by the Track Crew even yet. It is very tough to build a well jiving and skilled Track Crew; it also takes time.
Beans always had a reputation as an "A" level track for years...very hard to reverse even though thy have tamed it down.
The rider that will keep a local track going is the grass roots riders...the locals...then mid-level racers will travel.
Imagine if we all behaved responsibly and in good will...it's almost crazy to think that notion these days, let alone attempt to live it out with getting treaded upon. It's like a salmon swimming up stream to spawn. But when he arrives, it so worth it!
Stick-to-it-ive-ness!
Is yo' ego checked?
Safety matters...it all matters.
It is possible for something to be created that can influence our sport in a good way.
Protective gear is better than it ever has been...we really can't ask for nothing better.
Bikes are better than they have ever been...we really can't ask for nothing better.
It's hard to see either bikes or gear improving.
Injuries have always been around (The stakes are higher now a days if you put yourself in the mix because of machines)...Men that CARE about the SPORT and PEOPLE for the RIGHT reasons have done great things for our sport...on and off the track.
One could prolly reason that the development of the machines has lead to the development of tracks for those machines. LL is a prime example of a good track...people (at least 1) have still died there, I would probably attribute those deaths to the level of COMPETITION. Competition changes everything.
(In no particular order.)
1. Asterisk...one of the greatest safety inventions for the Pros. That is one way we can improve our local safety.
2. Track Crew Training
3. Track Promoter Training
4. Rider Training
5. Track Design
If you decide to ride...you are responsible for your actions...no matter the circumstance.
If you own a track...you are responsible for your actions...no matter the circumstances and the accommodation of people and their overall well-being as best you can.
We hold each other accountable.
We work together and get this done.
If you own a track or ride...YOUR MAIN CONCERN SHOULD BE SAFETY BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE SHOULD TAKE PLACE!
We are responsible to each other.
I have and could train an entire track crew and promoter. That's what my number 1 suggestion would be...the track crews; especially since it is more able to be completed at this point. Rider Training is just as important. Second would be a traveling medical staff...at least a couple or few familiar faces. Third is track design (possible hard one to implement due to the Promoter.) Track design is also important as No.1
The Organization and/or Promoter leads the way...safety must be communicated, taught, and upheld regularly. Once leadership is right...the people will follow willingly.
Having good leadership, very good safety abilities, a solid race day structure, fun & safe track, and a clean/practical facility will produce more riders than any swag or light show.
Steve from Kames mentioned once that Malvern has been successful over the years because of location and everyone can ride the track.
From the tracks I have worked...BC has the best safety standards overall as for the Track Crew Operation. Malvern is second best. They both have tons of room for growth for Safety Action by the Track Crew even yet. It is very tough to build a well jiving and skilled Track Crew; it also takes time.
Beans always had a reputation as an "A" level track for years...very hard to reverse even though thy have tamed it down.
The rider that will keep a local track going is the grass roots riders...the locals...then mid-level racers will travel.
Imagine if we all behaved responsibly and in good will...it's almost crazy to think that notion these days, let alone attempt to live it out with getting treaded upon. It's like a salmon swimming up stream to spawn. But when he arrives, it so worth it!
Stick-to-it-ive-ness!
Is yo' ego checked?
Safety matters...it all matters.
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KingRacing
PR Addict
This coming from a guy that doesn't ride now. You grew up and found new dreams... so good for you. This is not about big government and no one (not me, at least) is blaming big government... or even the tracks.
Motocross is not just a sport. It is a life-style. Once you get started you're going to have a really hard time reconciling the risk against the reward. Obviously. Otherwise, given the injuries I've personally seen first hand, we wouldn't still be racing. So never start? Wish we could go back in time when we still had that option.
Zach, you know what this is about. You've been there and moved on. Please don't patronize those of us that haven't yet.
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BriarcliffMx
PR Founding Father
Football at the lower levels is safer, the speed isn't great yet. High School isn't too bad. I mean people get hurt, but I don't think I have ever seen a chopper land at a hs game. I do know they are more strict about concussions these days. Definitely some injuries in football too, but I do know they are cracking down on helmet to helmet contact, which is probably the biggest concern for parents.
Probably the best place to be in football is kickoff coverage. You get to run full speed down the field and pop someone as hard as you can, and it's legal! I miss it. I think we should organize a helmets and pads game with a select few on here. It would fun
Probably the best place to be in football is kickoff coverage. You get to run full speed down the field and pop someone as hard as you can, and it's legal! I miss it. I think we should organize a helmets and pads game with a select few on here. It would fun