C class struggles.

[Jim598]

sandbagger, I think originated as a race car term. round pavement tracks used to qualify and then put the fastest qualifier at the rear and the slowest time at the front.. so the ole boys would put bags of sand in their car during qualifying, the weight of the sand would slow them down. then take them out for the race... must have been a bunch of sand...lol

 

[Scoob]

What's even is a sandbagger, seriously? Who even came up with that term?

Ha! Great point. What's filling a bag with sand gots to do with MX Willis? haha

Yeah, these threads bore me and bring me down. Always a lot of decent to good ideas, but the bull headedness and arrogance make it all BS. There's no cookie cutter solution for EVERY situation unfortunately. Between the C riders really trying to go places to the weekend warrior or the trail rider that comes out to a race here and there, there just isn't a solution to keep those true C riders in the C class and the "sandbaggers" out.

To be honest, I could care less. I was bumped out of C class years ago after 3 years and get this, I was called a sandbagger by a few in my last year. I laugh as I was OK when I was up, but had many o' races that I couldn't stay that way... Was going to say JS7 or ET3 disease, but that doesn't compare. Those guys line up faster than I moved back then. Not a whole lot of difference now. I still can't corner very well, but can jump just about anything...as long as it's not right out of a corner.

 

[jstory]

Didn't Jeremy McGrath race Lorettas as a C rider? He had a pretty good pro career.

Alex, I have to disagree that the AMA is doing everything they could to enforce the C class sandbagging. It is a joke. Nick Story is a good example. He is a kid that raced 50s, 65s and 85s in D11 for years. Then he gets on big bikes and goes to the C class. NO ONE that rides 50s, 65s and then 85s should be eligible for the C class. We have two kids now same deal, riding C class. Smoked everyone at every race last year, won series championships and now are STILL racing the C class this year to go to Lorettas.

I am someone who went to Lorrettas in the C class. I can assure you when I went in 1993 it was not like it is today. It was much more of a true C class. Too many people today are C riders, living at SOB, have a fleet of bikes, and are being home schooled. These are NOT C riders. I have the solution. Have the C class at Lorettas as a support class, same at the regionals. Allow them to race, but DO NOT award a "National" championship for what is supposed to be a beginner class.

I also like the B/C class thing at AMA and OMA local races. Usually the B class is small enough that is could be combined with the C class, and would make a nice gate. Then as Knox said, if your AMA card says 1 or 2 on it, you qualify. Says 3, your B/C. That is why as someone working in registration, don't you ever question someone signing up for C class that has a 6, 7 or 8 on their AMA cards??

First off if you would like to discuss something about my son you should address it to me. I am the one who pays for his racing and signed him up at each event he has ever raced in. Secondly, He raced completely within the AMA rules. He has ridden for years as has tried for Lorettas at every level and never made it ever for one reason or another. He has also never been able to finish and age group class due to his size. He raced one year(last year) in the C class which was his first full season on a 250F. That was it. He tried for Lorrettas and bad luck kept him from going. He is riding B now not because he had to but because I felt it was time.

It would probably be a good idea for some of you to keep you opinions to you self when talking about someones kid. I'm not sure I have ever seen as many people concerned about everyone else as I do on here. Maybe just worry about your own situation and not worry about everyone else. Especially when most of the time you don't know all of the facts.

 

[ck1racerx]

Ali vs Frazer
Mayo vs. Miracle Whip
C class vs B

You just have to pick a side and go with it.
Advancement issues have been around since separate classes were created. There has never been a one size fits all solution, and no matter what system is put in place, there will be loopholes because we are dealing with people that spend a great deal of time looking for them.
There were 29 cars in my sons pinewood derby race for Cub Scouts. How many of them were actually following the rules and were made by the kids? (We got smoked cause my son clearly knows nothing about aerodynamics, coefficient of friction, or distribution of weight)
The current advancement system is fair, and I guess that is the point, but it would be so nice for someone to have the power to move people up (or down) during the year.

 

[ck1racerx]

If we cant talk about someone else kid, then we can talk about anything...

 

[John250]

Justin I apologize. Knox brought Nicks name up, and his name has come up before. Nicks rides great, but never seemed to be a C class rider skill level in my opinion either. There are a few others that race local that have been smoking C for a couple years that are C currently also. I know all about pulling my son off a bike a year early. My son came off 50s early, 65 early, and is 11 in Mini Jr, and will probably never ride a Sr moto or super mini because he will go to a 125 next year because of size.

The whole debate comes up because of the Lorettas and local C riders. Huge difference. As I mentioned when I went to Lorettas in C class, it was no where near what it is today.

Whats the solution? I said make it a non championship class. Make them have a 1 or 2 on their AMA card to ride the class......or start a true Beginner class with a 1 or 2 on their card. But I also believe that even though my son has been riding for years, he is not a C rider (by definition, but by skills in the class yes).

 

[MalvernMX]

Unless it's a standard in every single organization out there, there will always be "sandbaggers". Last year at SOB, they were trying to get Zack to run C class for Lorettas. In the OMA, he's one of the top B riders, but in the AMA, he can barely compete. I believe he would be one of the top C riders at the Lorettas level, but in my opinion, that's ridiculous! How can someone that speed be considered a C rider? And Zack would've 100% qualified as a C rider by AMA rules, just like most of these other kids. Even more so really, since he didn't actually start racing until he was on super minis!!
~Tina~

 

[GeorgiePorgie]

Mx Sports tried to run a non points paying D class like 85 beginner class. (At LL) And guess what happened......first year it got riddled with sandbaggers and Kevin Cozaad made a huge debacle about it at the track with his own kid. So much of a headache was created that mx sports dumped that class. They can't just dump the C class.

And when people are at local races they can't continue to complain about C riders. It is, what it is. A lot of the people who complain at the local level think this is the end all, be all of racing. Then they get their eyes opened when they attend a national caliber event with the speeds.

I never meant to single out any rider with this post. I never meant to say to any rider that they should move themselves up. Race what you want to race. But don't go bitching to Connie in the OMA sign up booth about your opinions (which aren't censored as they are on here) regarding C riders. Because a blow up will ensue, unlike in the sign up booth where Connie has no problems maintaining her cool. A trait I wish I had myself. Sorry for the crap this thread created.

The main idea was simple: "Would a local B/C class ruin a national-running C riders chance of qualifying for loretta's...?" I've never gotten an answer yet.

 

[jstory]

If this Hartranft kid is so fast, why is he sandbagging in the B class? Move his butt up.
When the C class was created it was for 1 and 2 year riders ONLY. The Joe Workboots that shows up at a local race. He had a chance to actually win an award and at that point most of them are hooked. The current batch of cherry pickers have all been in the sport for some time and are hooked on racing. If you told them they had to race the B class, I am sure some, ok, most would not like it but 99% are going to accept it and race.
I am not saying the first two year thing is the perfect answer but it is a darn good place to start.
I want to use an example. Story's boy is rocket fast. he has been racing for a LONG time. Last year he rode the C class and walked the dog every time I seen him ride. This year (6 months later) he is top 10 in the B class at one of the biggest events in the area. Now I know he was following the rules due to his age, but he is and was way to good to ride that class.
He is a regular reader so I would like to hear is take.

Bringing new people in to our sport should be #1 for all of us.

My take would be that I don't make the rules I just play by them. And by the As you can tell there is much debate about what should be allowed and what shouldn't. I feel the AMA is working hard to address this situation but as Alex has said there is no easy answer. Its not my place to comment on other peoples situation when it comes to racing. If they are breaking the rules that would probably be the only time you will hear me comment on someone else. As far as our situation you have seen my son ride and I appreciate the nice comments but you have not seen him ride anywhere other than our local events. Yes he was doing very well last year (his 1st and only year in the C class) In my opinion it was good for him to gain confidence and build some momentum. We also did a fair amount of racing out of state at qualifiers and other amateur national events. At these events he was not the dominate rider you watched locally. Why wouldn't I give my son the chance to do well at a larger event like those? He was 15 years old and it was his first full year on a 250F.

I don't get the mind set to advance kids so quickly. I know that you cant be advanced to the "A" class until your 16 but that is what will happen to a lot of kids when they turn 16 and then you will lose a lot of them. I also feel you should not be able to get a pro licence until you are 18. It seems crazy to me to throw some of these kids out there with seasoned professionals at that age. I think it contributes to a lot of the injuries those kids sustain when trying to push the pace to compete but they are actually ready.

The only thing I question sometimes is the AMA allowing people to petition back down after being advanced. I am sure there at some circumstances that warrants that to happen but I do know of several that have been approved that in no way should have been.

 

[adam63]

I think first and foremost people need to be reasonable and realistic about the C class and look up the definition of "Novice".
I see and hear the fuss quite often about this very issue. I'm pretty easy going about this issue and try to sympathize with others feelings on the subject but my opinion is simple: place yourself or child in the best situation you can, taking into account the desired outcome (if you think the only desired outcome is a first place trophy for that day well... you already lost) and the circumstances that need attention. If your desired outcome is to teach yourself or child that winning is easy (for some it is no matter the competition) then by all means... place yourself or your child with the competition you or they are most likely to dominate without much effort. Now, on the flip side, if your desired outcome is to teach yourself or child about determination, work ethic, responsibility, (I could go on for ever) then chose your class accordingly.

The so called "Sandbagging" will all come out in the wash! Again, just my opinion, but we won't fix this issue until, well... what Tina said. Oh ya, and we can force the masses to think any way we want them to, like our United States government!

 

[ck1racerx]

Justin, your son needs to be a linebacker. Man he is big for his age.
I agree with everything you said. The min age for a pro licenses really should be 18. It gives the kids a chance (well, better chance) of finishing high school and be in a better position for life after moto.
Answer the door, its Urban Meyer on a recruiting visit.

 

[owndjoo]

Again... we can't change a National Advancement system because of one guy. And I think your being a little short sided saying, "NO ONE that riders 50s, 65s and then 85s should be eligible for the C class." Really? I know many kids that simply aren't that good, they have never won anything and they continue to show up every weekend. Those kids are my heroes because they dig the sport, no matter what.

We talk about the home schooled/training facility stuff all the time. It's not that simple. And keep in mind... I've heard as high as 5% of the all school-aged kids in the entire country are homeschooled. Do you want to eliminate a first year rider from the C class because they are home schooled for personal reasons? Then the training camp stuff.. what's definition of a training camp? A kid with his dad in his backyard doing drills? What about a kid that actually goes to high school in Hamer, SC then goes to SOB in the afternoons?

I can't disagree that the advancement system has its loopholes. We are aware and we are attempting to close them, without taking the true C riders out of the class. One of the biggest loopholes, the non-AMA events. Call your promoter and demand the AMA. (And then wait for them to laugh and listen for them to hang up on you)

In my few years at the AMA, plus a lifetime around the sport... C class at the local level and National level, is probably the slowest that I can remember. If a kid wants to sandbag a lifetime to win Battle of Ohio C class championship or qualify for Loretta's, well good for them. Then the next year, they're in the B class. What's even is a sandbagger, seriously? Who even came up with that term?

Wasn't there a rule before stating that if you raced a year in Mini Sr. you were advanced to B class when you moved to a big bike? This was like.... 2000 when I was finishing my Mini career... LOL. That's why I automatically went to B class when I started racing again last year.... I guess I could move back down to C hahahaha

 

[GeorgiePorgie]

1. Classification Advancement
   1. All C riders carrying an RPV of 15 or higher at year- end will be advanced to the B class.
      
      
   2. The following criteria are to be used when
      
      determining a rider’s eligibility for the C class:
      1. (1) No rider is to be classified as a C rider if that rider had a RPV of 15 or higher the previous year in the C class or a 12-16 youth division.
         
         
      2. (2) No rider is to be classified as a C rider if that rider has ever been classified as an A rider.
         
         
      3. (3) No rider is to be classified as a C rider if that rider has participated in the AMA Amateur National Motocross Championship in any previous year in any class with the exception of any girls or women classes unless otherwise specified.
         
         
      4. (4) No rider is to be classified as a C rider if that rider is receiving or has ever received any type of OEM factory support in any class. (Excluding OEM contingency and trackside support)
         
         
      5. (5) If a rider doesn't meet any of the above criteria, they may not participate in the C class if they have raced C the previous two calendar years and have an RPV of 13 or higher.
         
         
      6. (6) Riders who placed in the top 5 overall in a
         
         "Women’s" class at the previous AMA Amateur
         
         National Motocross Championship are no longer eligible to compete in the "C" class.
2. Youth Advancement
   
   Riders eligible for advancement include youth riders competing in classes structured with age groups between the ages of 12-16. Youth advancement points are used only to advance riders to the B classification. Only AMA-recognized advancement classes will be used to calculate a Rider Performance Value (RPV). (Pg. 10, 2015 AMA rulebook)

1. No “A class” riders are permitted to compete in any “Youth” classes.(Pg. 13, 2015 AMA rulebook)

reference:

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/racing/rules

 

[Original44]

Again... we can't change a National Advancement system because of one guy. And I think your being a little short sided saying, "NO ONE that riders 50s, 65s and then 85s should be eligible for the C class." Really? I know many kids that simply aren't that good, they have never won anything and they continue to show up every weekend. Those kids are my heroes because they dig the sport, no matter what.

We talk about the home schooled/training facility stuff all the time. It's not that simple. And keep in mind... I've heard as high as 5% of the all school-aged kids in the entire country are homeschooled. Do you want to eliminate a first year rider from the C class because they are home schooled for personal reasons? Then the training camp stuff.. what's definition of a training camp? A kid with his dad in his backyard doing drills? What about a kid that actually goes to high school in Hamer, SC then goes to SOB in the afternoons?

I can't disagree that the advancement system has its loopholes. We are aware and we are attempting to close them, without taking the true C riders out of the class. One of the biggest loopholes, the non-AMA events. Call your promoter and demand the AMA. (And then wait for them to laugh and listen for them to hang up on you)

In my few years at the AMA, plus a lifetime around the sport... C class at the local level and National level, is probably the slowest that I can remember. If a kid wants to sandbag a lifetime to win Battle of Ohio C class championship or qualify for Loretta's, well good for them. Then the next year, they're in the B class. What's even is a sandbagger, seriously? Who even came up with that term?

Alex,

George and I were wondering if a local organization such as 0MA, CRA or AMA decided to run their classes as B/C, would a racer still be eligible for the C class at LL? I hope you are able to give us a straight answer on that. Thank you.

 

[owndjoo]

So actually I AM C-class eligible.... hahahaha

 

[ck1racerx]

(4) No rider is to be classified as a C rider if that rider is receiving or has ever received any type of OEM factory support in any class. (Excluding OEM contingency and trackside support)


reference:

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/racing/rules

As I pointed out in a previous topic. "OEM" factory support can be a 10% discount on a pair of goggles???
Original equipment manufactures are anything made and sold to the public.
Yes, it is picky since we all know they are talking about bikes but hey, that's not what the rulebook says.

 

[GeorgiePorgie]

As I pointed out in a previous topic. "OEM" factory support can be a 10% discount on a pair of goggles???
Original equipment manufactures are anything made and sold to the public.
Yes, it is picky since we all know they are talking about bikes but hey, that's not what the rulebook says.

Read the parenthesis. And factory support meant a prepared bike from the support truck.

Hell, Back in the day the amatuer factory support trucks would rebuild your entire blown up motor for free if it happened at the event. Even if you weren't a signed factory rider. They don't do that anymore. Economy probably put a stop to that.


That rule was made because around the time of 2000-2004 Suzuki actually had factory supported C Riders running big events like mini o's. I beleive dean Dyess was one of them at the time. Ama nipped that in the butt in a hurry. No factory support should be involved In a novice class.

 

[Alex186]

A "B/C" class would not make a rider ineligible for C class. It would still be a advancement class under AMA Advancement rules if the event is sanctioned (Combined Class Advancement).

I'm not fan of this class concept. It's going to scare off all your C classified riders. If you thinking in addition to the current classes, that's fine. But I think your heading down the wrong road. Your idea to solve your sandbagging problem, is basically making all the slower/beginner riders uncompetitive, they'll stop coming. People don't like to hear this, but I realize this is a business and bills must be paid, don't alienate your largest demographic of riders. We can't fix problems by making hard left turns everytime something happens, continue to make small adjustments to get where you want to be.

 

[Original44]

Thanks for letting us know.

I have to disagree with you on the fact it would scare off C riders. Case in point the mini classes are opened skill level. Doesn't seem to affect the turnout for the 85 classes, the supermini class or schoolboy.

Thanks again.

 

[hershey]

A "B/C" class would not make a rider ineligible for C class. It would still be a advancement class under AMA Advancement rules if the event is sanctioned (Combined Class Advancement).

I'm not fan of this class concept. It's going to scare off all your C classified riders. If you thinking in addition to the current classes, that's fine. But I think your heading down the wrong road. Your idea to solve your sandbagging problem, is basically making all the slower/beginner riders uncompetitive, they'll stop coming. People don't like to hear this, but I realize this is a business and bills must be paid, don't alienate your largest demographic of riders. We can't fix problems by making hard left turns everytime something happens, continue to make small adjustments to get where you want to be.

Im sorry but you dont get it. You are worried about alienating seasoned racers who dont belong in the C class. All the while you ARE alienating the true beginner rider who belongs in C class. You are alienating one of the ways we grow the sport. Your C class LL racers make up a small fraction of the C class nation wide and you are rewarding them by letting them feel like kings for winning the C class at local events.

Poor marketing strategy. Look at the pure market feedback you are receiving just here on this board. You have one or two who agree with you...one of which has been rewarded by following the rules .... every other reply is telling you it isnt right. Yet you want to stick to your guns and defend what the large majority of racers are telling you doesnt work.

Knox has the AMA tagged just right.