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As the season comes to an end, something the promoters need to think about.

Discussion in 'MX/SX General' started by WishfulThinking, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. 1) this will not be a bashing session and there will be no name calling
    2) i have been on both sides of the argument im going to make below, so i now understand why people used to make a big deal about it

    Here's my rant.
    As the season comes to an end, and points battles are getting closer and closer, I'd like to see the promoters take into consideration the classes they run together on the track. Without naming promoters and tracks (because that's not what this is about), there has been two weeks in a row of having issues with the second gated class catching up to the first gated class and causing riders to go down.

    The easy solution is to just split all classes into separate motos and everyone is happy, but lets be real, that cant/wont ever happen. Ive been on both sides of the argument. Back in my youthful days of running schoolboy and getting gated with older guys and hearing them complain about it, I always brushed it off as them being old and grumpy. And now that I am a bit older, and being gated with the younger riders, I now understand what they were saying back then. It's frustrating and annoying.

    I understand we aren't out there racing for AMA titles and million dollar championships, but for mos, if not all, of us, the weekend is spent at the track with our friends, riding and having fun, and maybe at the end of the year win a big dust collector to put on a shelf.

    Two weekends in a row I left the racetrack grumpy and mad because some younger, faster, kid who wasn't in my class can't make a pass without getting physical on the track. I know rubbing is racing, we've all been there, I get it. But when your actions are affecting my race that you aren't a part of, that's when I feel like I need to speak up. I don't have an 'answer all solution' and I'm not claiming to, I would just like to point out that as the end of the season grows closer, pushing multiple classes out at once so we can get the day done faster isn't the right answer.

    Feel free to offer suggestions below. Or just read and shrug it off.
  2. Romanyak256

    Romanyak256 PR Member

    I've had this happen many of times, especially with them running 2stk and 25+ together... They'd always let 2stk go first and 2nd drop was 25+ and we'd always catch up to at least the front half, it's hard to race a class when you run two classes together, because you're really racing everyone out there.
  3. Meister

    Meister PR Founding Father

    Racing Number:
    What's the fix???

    Creating a running order takes great effort, as I'm sure most know.
  4. Strouble

    Strouble PR Addict

    North Canton, OH
    Fill the gate...one drop. Bahaha! Wishful thinking...pun intended.
    adam63 likes this.
  5. Meister

    Meister PR Founding Father

    Racing Number:
    You of all people know how much complaining that would create.
  6. Strouble

    Strouble PR Addict

    North Canton, OH
    Exactly Meister...I thought the sarcasm was clear.

    It is a solution though...and prolly the best one if folks would accept that.

    One thing that helps in creating the running order is when the person knows the riders in the classes.

    You could make less classes...but ya can't trim too much fat off the steak...fat gives some great flavor.

    If a promoter is senselessly grouping classes just because they don't want to be there...then that promoter needs to reevaluate why they choose to run races. Smh.

    Otherwise...it's all in the running order. I still am a proponent of 99% accurate premade running orders...I have never sat down and figured out the logistics...have ran it through my head many times...I have a theory that is untested. The only promoter I know of that thinks along the same lines as my theory is CTMX.
  7. TowerGal

    TowerGal PR Founding Father

    Since the BIG finger is probably pointing at me, I will make a few comments:

    I realize and agree with you Wishful Thinking - If I make one group happy (Plus 50 and Women), I make another group unhappy (schoolboy and collegeboy and etc) I do want you to know that I spend alot of time trying to come up with the best race order that I can. Time is an issue - I get parents, and adults upset because their moto was 9th, 13th, 17th.. They have to work in the morning, they have church, they have a 4 hour drive.. Ideally, one class per Moto would be GREAT, but we may have to eliminate practice and start 4 hours earlier..lol I wish we could have less classes so we could give each class their own moto - I wish the gate was full so I had NO CHOICE but to run them separately and that meant we weren't getting out of there til 2 or 3am!

    As Meister eluded too.. A race order is difficult. Every week is different. We have 50, 65 and 85cc parents that race too, we try to accommodate them so they aren't sitting in staging while their child is on the track, especially if they don't have anyone else in their pit crew to help if something goes wrong..Add in the multiple riders sharing bikes, and every week there are multiple new riders or riders who haven't been to this track. Every race is different with different riders and different styles.

    All of our OMA promoters have tried the pre-made race order - The weather adjusted that for them.. lol There are almost always modifications! The closest we have came is during the qualifiers, because we run them individually.

    I appreciate your input and I, in no way, ever want there to be a negative situation on the track. Thanks for your honest feelings about this and please feel free to contact me at the track to talk about this more if you like.

    Also, remember that riders absolutely have a right to come to the referee during the riders meeting, or anytime after and discuss these issues with the referee on duty. I know that at Malvern, we have one of the finest Referee's in the business! ;)
    chubakka, MalvernMX, saplakc and 2 others like this.
  8. I honestly am not pointing fingers at anyone individual in general. Because this happened at two separate tracks with different promoters. I can only imagine how difficult it is to make a race order that suits every single persons needs. And it honestly wasn't an 'issue' in the beginning of the year when points were not an issue. Now that it's come down to the last 10ish races, different story.
  9. GeorgiePorgie

    GeorgiePorgie PR Founding Father

    Ohio the 440
    Racing Number:
    Not sure if the OP is eluding to this scenario I'm about to rant on. Maybe he's not. Maybe he is.

    Parents need to talk to their "kids" about stupid aggression. Cool it. By kid that means up to and including the age of "mom and dad didn't buy it". (This might get as high as 38)

    Don't be passing people in practice (first lap) and in staggered motos within an inch of the poor guy trying to have fun in his class. Then look back at them, raised hands and all. Yelling. Etc. Cut that s**t out. Do it at lorettas (but you won't do it there)just keep it out of local racing. Keep it out of racing period. Only people that should be at each other's throats are the guys battling for position. Don't take out your aggression on other competitor not in your class simply because they are on the track.

    And also explain that it's not the staggered class riders obligation to move out of a line for another classed rider. It's your job as a rider to get around anyone on the track that ends up in front of you. And if that track is one lined and you're being held up....don't panic rev the s**t out of the bike and make a scene behind the guy and scream at him on the way by while you smash him over a berm after the opportunity finally presents itself. THis type of riding is retarded. Sometime you have to use your brain to pass people outside of the best line on the track.:confused:
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2015
    john lilly and chubakka like this.
  10. This is exactly what I was talking about.
  11. TowerGal

    TowerGal PR Founding Father

    Wishful Thinking - Glad to know! I will consider all this going forward for the rest of the season!! I appreciate your input!

    This has been quite a year of "ridiculous-things-that-MX Parents-are-teaching-their-children". I would hope that as a parent if I saw the above, I would pull junior off the track and we would have a discussion about what Georgie's talking about..

  12. TimSr90

    TimSr90 PR Addict

    Rittman, Ohio
    Racing Number:
    I'm all for docking riders who make deliberate contact. I know this forum is all about bikes, but ramming people from behind has become standard procedure with some of the quad riders. When you start enforcing it, people will stop doing it.
  13. ck1racerx

    ck1racerx PR Addict

    Iron Chef Chili Kitchen
    Racing Number:
    1 My Chili Trophy tells me so
    i2 points:
    First to the point of the thread...
    Only one way (outside of filling the gate for each class, which we know we cant do) to fix this issue is to reduce the number of classes. Plain and simple. This is the root of all evil in local moto. The pro practices #1 argument is the lack of track time vs. the price to race. Why is the track time so limited? because of the 4.2 million class options. Only way to get them all in is to group them together. Which is effectively eliminating the separate class...
    Fat Bastard had it all figured out. "Im unhappy because I eat, and I eat because im unhappy" Its a vicious cycle.
    Elminate a lot of the classes. Then you don't need to combine which eliminates the multipal gate drops. That frees up more time in the day to add laps which eliminates the lack of track time argument.

    Really? Docking riders because they yell at you or look back at you? "Oh, he bumped me in the corner... I want him docked a lap... "
    Come on Georgie, a properly timed panic rev in a slow corner and watching the rider infront of you get 3rd degree butt pucker is one of the best feelings in the world.
    Rubbing is racing. and bikes don't have bumpers. Write that down...
    Original44 and hershey like this.
  14. BriarcliffMx

    BriarcliffMx PR Founding Father

    That and we should all get a free ice cream and a beer for all vet classes, I mean the one Vet class under the d1ck class structure.
  15. ck1racerx

    ck1racerx PR Addict

    Iron Chef Chili Kitchen
    Racing Number:
    1 My Chili Trophy tells me so
    Mini jr
    Mini sr
    D for the beginners

    That's 2 classes for everyone if you want. It worked for decades and it would still work today.
    And before you say it J.O. No, I'm not living in the past. Even I am flexible enough to add a beginner class (even though that is what C is supposed to be)
    morris646, smitty39, hershey and 2 others like this.
  16. BriarcliffMx

    BriarcliffMx PR Founding Father

    Why 2 85 classes then?
  17. Strouble

    Strouble PR Addict

    North Canton, OH
    Didn't have time to go into it last night.

    The end result of my theory would be a selection of "base" running orders broken down into three groups "muddy, good, and dry" conditions and then broken down into the amount of riders while factoring in track prep, classes, etc.

    The first part is data collection from publicly archived scoring, and then analysis.

    There is much more to it...but making a running order on race day is complex...this theory of logistics is even more complex.

    It's a lot of leg work...but once you have the results that are custom tailored to any given class structure, business plan, and the individual track...it would make life easier.

    It could also be used to create a class structure.

    Their is also a level of contentment on the riders part included in this...it's all about balance.
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2015
  18. Strouble

    Strouble PR Addict

    North Canton, OH
    In regards to Bakers comment
    ...their is a line in the sand of acceptable "hounding" the rider in front of you to unsportsmanlike conduct.
    GeorgiePorgie and hershey like this.
  19. TowerGal

    TowerGal PR Founding Father


    We would be eaten alive if we didn't offer at least a 50Jr and 50Sr... They would all carry pitchforks and have big torches.. Zombies don't have anything on "some" of these PeeWee Parents.. lol (I encourage - 2 50 classes b/c of the different between KTM JR and KTM Sr etc..)
    Wait.. what NO WOMENS or GIRLS class... ugh oh.. I could go on..DON"T GET ME WRONG.. I like it, and I would enforce it, but then I don't have any $$ invested in it.. So I will just do what they say... lol Wait a minute.. WHERE ARE THE QUADS??????? KNOX you put them back in that list of classes, you hear me? lol
    ck1racerx and john lilly like this.
  20. RobinsonRacing

    RobinsonRacing PR Addict

    Grove City, Ohio, United States
    Racing Number:
    I for one do not mind being on the track with other classes as long as we are in a staggered start! It drives me nuts when 30+ is gated with College boy and there are 16 in each class. I enjoy big gates but do not enjoy homeboy that just got his rite to vote slamming me in the first lap.

    Fit as many classes as you can in one moto, but give each class their own start. Starts are huge in our short ass 4 lap races. If i get caught up to or catch up to another class then ill ride my own race and stay in my line as i was taught.

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