Improving Quad turnouts, and racer turnouts in general
- Thread starter TimSr90
- Start date
TwentyThreeMX
PR Founding Father
i mean 23 is kinda in my title.
Im trying hard not to bash here in any way buuuuut... What have the quad riders done for themselves? How about starting a quad organization, how about starting a quad only track, how about not complaining that BIKE tracks wont cater to 15 quad guys? All I see is quad guys moanin and groanin that no one wants to help them out. Help yourselves, you guys should have your own badass tracks that bike arnt allowed. Pretty crazy theres an awsome 3 wheeler organization, but what is there for the qwad guys? I like quads, its what I started racing mx on, but i saw how unorganized the sport was (late 90s) and it seems its the exact same, So I bought a bike and havent looked back. Imo the only way for the sport to grow is to seperate itself from bikes completely. Rant over lol
YZ125
PR Addict
X 2.
Except the "i started MX on a quad" part... Quad racing in NOT Motocross.
Get off the couch and RIDE !!!
MX315
PR Addict
Quads guys complaining about track time....several tracks gave them their OWN day.....nobody showed...Dirt world did,Smith road did and Malvern did nobody showed...Makes good biz sence to cancel if nobody shows up? Like I said before the only track that is BIG enough and WIDE enough for both is CLiff....Granted they only get 5-6 guys.....very fast guys I know that.....but there is really nothing else tracks can do to Please them. Maybe tracks can start like quad rental days...That way they can organize a group of chair to get together and have the track to them selves!!
BriarcliffMx
PR Founding Father
Organized?....hmmmmm....I wonder who is capable of that, now if only i knew where there was a bad ass track........My advise is tread lightly.
GeorgiePorgie
PR Founding Father
How do you afford to maintain and chase some nationals on a Quad with 3,000? My god you gotta dump 10 grand or more after you buy one just to have it race ready....
Maybe that's why Quad turnout sucks. Everyone's broke, quads are ridiculously more expensive to race than bikes! If you don't believe me check out the rigs at a quad national compared to other nationals....There isn't really the "ghetto hood" box truck broke privateer scene at a quad national....
Maybe that's why Quad turnout sucks. Everyone's broke, quads are ridiculously more expensive to race than bikes! If you don't believe me check out the rigs at a quad national compared to other nationals....There isn't really the "ghetto hood" box truck broke privateer scene at a quad national....
derrick adams
PR Member
I really don't see many quad guys at all complain about riding on bike tracks or with bikes. I honestly don't know where that notion comes from? It works just fine on race days, why would practice days be any different. Its real simple, just let the quads go out after the bikes. Seems to work at RamJam, Circle T, etc.
I agree with Tims perception, but the reality may not support it. Just like everyone has stated.. racing quads is expensive. Even the woodsman mx races are full of built machines.
The other strike against beginner racing is quad racing is ROUGH. Aside from Sunset Ramblers i've never seen even beginner quad races where quad to quad contact wasn't inevitable. If you aren't ready to crash, racing is extremely intimidating.
Racing three wheelers is totally the opposite though. The machines are cheap, extremely challenging to ride, and they don't tend to crash into each other near as much. Hard enough just staying on the damn things! (Yes..I race those too)
I agree with Tims perception, but the reality may not support it. Just like everyone has stated.. racing quads is expensive. Even the woodsman mx races are full of built machines.
The other strike against beginner racing is quad racing is ROUGH. Aside from Sunset Ramblers i've never seen even beginner quad races where quad to quad contact wasn't inevitable. If you aren't ready to crash, racing is extremely intimidating.
Racing three wheelers is totally the opposite though. The machines are cheap, extremely challenging to ride, and they don't tend to crash into each other near as much. Hard enough just staying on the damn things! (Yes..I race those too)
derrick adams
PR Member
X 2.
Except the "i started MX on a quad" part... Quad racing in NOT Motocross.
Get off the couch and RIDE !!!
Unbelievable...
Woody
PR Addict
Ha $3000 was just to do 5 races (entry, travel) the quad costs/ maintenance is way more than that. And thats racing out of my monster 10' trailer. There are some serious rigs at the nationals for sure.
Im not sure where this big idea is that quad riders are demanding their own personal track days, most just want a place to ride. I feel sorry for those who can't make it to the cliff since its the only place in the lower 48 states that knows how to prep a track.
BriarcliffMx
PR Founding Father
Quad nationals are usually a sea of white. Alot of dough there. Stacker trailers, toter homes, semi's etc. A bike guy could race Loretta's (from area to the ranch) 5 years straight off of what one serious A level racer spends at the nationals in one year. The expense is just part of it. Its takes its toll on your body too. Im not kidding about the live bull analogy that i use sometimes.
MalvernMX
Guest
Alright everyone let's take a deep breath and calm down a bit on the whole bike vs quad thing. It really would be a whole lot easier to get along than to keep bickering back and forth. I think we need to just recognize the difference between the two and try give each other the respect that we would each want.
As far as the Wednesday practices go, man I caught more crap from this than I care to remember or want to recite. Talk about a tough situation, when I decided to split the two for obvious reasons my bike turnout went up drastically. In having the quad practices on Thursday I knew that day was not going to turn a profit but by making more on Wednesday I would be willing to just break even or come close to breaking even to be fair to everyone and try to keep all my customers happy. None of those days even came close to breaking even. I think we did 5 Thursday's with the last two being after the nationals. Those two turnouts were 10 and 8. I don't buy the whole it was a national week and that's why the turnout sucked. Not true! That very weekend I would get 60 to 70 quads at our race. They weren't at the national? Who I really feel bad for is the 8 or 10 guys who showed up. I mean they were doing all they could do to have a place to ride by showing up. They can't control the others actions or lack there of. Having said that, it still made no sence to bring back 10 paying customers to potentialy loose 40 as a result. In the end the old saying "you will never make everyone happy" holds very true.
In the midst of getting bitched at week after week all summer long I did consider going bikes only for 2013. I remember when bechwood closed up my son Zack was about 4 and riding a 90 Polaris quad there. The first couple weeks after they closed he cried when I told him we couldn't go. I can not bring myself to do this to anyone else's child. It's just not the right thing to do.
As far as practices for next year, the Saturday practices before a Sunday race will be for bikes and quads in separate sessions. We will see how that works out, the track surface has changed drastically sence the last time we had this format. That will determine how I run the weekday stuff. I really do want to be fair to everyone but I have made a huge investment here and cannot ignore profit and loss.
liljhall09
PR Addict
^ doesnt get better than that. Not many know before i got into the pitbike/bike scene i had a fully built honda 450r just to pull my own weight in woodsman quad, no doubt i had 8-10gs in my quad and that was a stock motor. I sold my quad because it got way to expensive and I didnt even race the national level, like others said about showing up at a quad national it takes a little more than a built quad to compete there. Even from going to malvern every wed. for practice i had to take a few second looks around as i seen a handful of the good quad guys riding bikes. The more the season went on the more you would see of the quad guys on big bikes. The more you see it the quad publicity is dying down and more people are getting out of it , which is ashame for all the guys that have dumped there life savings and time to try and make it to the pro level to find out theres not much at the top anymore. Like Jason said you cant make everyone happy , so when you have the chance to ride take it while you can because I feel there isnt to many of those days left for the quad nationals and what not.
TimSr90
PR Addict
I'm glad tro see some thoughtful discussion with a minimal amount of quad bashing and promoter bashing, neither of which is helpful. Promoters who have sincerely tried, should not be bashed when those efforts have not gained support. The object of this thread is to come up with ways that will work.
You would not believe how significant this "minor" detail is. Years ago, somebody posted a practice on Pitracer, and being a newbie, I simply asked if the practice included quads or was bike only. After about a dozen nasty quad bashing responses, the promoter politely posted that it was a bike only track. Had he said quads were welcome, I still would not have gone after those repsonses for fear of feeling like I was at an Obama rally wearing a Romney t-shirt. It is a reality that when bike only tracks do try to bring in quads in ANY capacity, you will have some "loyal" bike patrons who wish for your efforts to fail, and will even do their best to see that it happens, sometimes even if quads are run on a separate night. While many biker complainst are legitimate and need ot be addressed, some purist bikers irrationally see it as a fidelity issue, and vow they won't ride today because you had those filthy infidel quads on the track last week.
You would not believe how significant this "minor" detail is. Years ago, somebody posted a practice on Pitracer, and being a newbie, I simply asked if the practice included quads or was bike only. After about a dozen nasty quad bashing responses, the promoter politely posted that it was a bike only track. Had he said quads were welcome, I still would not have gone after those repsonses for fear of feeling like I was at an Obama rally wearing a Romney t-shirt. It is a reality that when bike only tracks do try to bring in quads in ANY capacity, you will have some "loyal" bike patrons who wish for your efforts to fail, and will even do their best to see that it happens, sometimes even if quads are run on a separate night. While many biker complainst are legitimate and need ot be addressed, some purist bikers irrationally see it as a fidelity issue, and vow they won't ride today because you had those filthy infidel quads on the track last week.
TimSr90
PR Addict
It is irrational to expect promoters to continuously lose money just to have quads practice. The point is to come up with ways they can accommodate small numbers without losing money, and to increase the number over time to make it worthwhile. I highly doubt any promoter would try quad practice just for the purpose of talking it away, and when people bash them over sincere attempts that failed, it makes them more reluctant to try again.
hershey
PR Elite
I think you are just a bit off on this one. I have never heard anyone be that drastic. But seeing some of the ridiculous responses on this thread I can understand how you feel. JO has it down for both groups already, Jason at Malvern has a history of welcoming quads/ 3 wheelers. The two heading up OMA are obviously on your side. Keep your faith in the future with them, do your best to take up Briarcliff on his offer. The more you help them with turnouts the better the chance of your ideas filtering into other people.
One question, what are your thoughts on Jasons reasons for his scheduling changes with quads? From your perspective does it make sense or not?
BriarcliffMx
PR Founding Father
We are possibly working on a quad only ride day for 2013 at BC, just an idea at this point. I think it would be cool to include OTC, and possibly get some vintage stuff out there as well Tim. Meaning 250r's-lt500's-oldschool 90's stuff. That way the kids can learn a history lesson too. If it could be done around the time Wienen and Brown are in the area, I think it would be well attended.
TimSr90
PR Addict
This is an issue that has evolved to the problem it is today. When I started racing (again) in 1998, you could actually be competitive with quads on a vintage 3 wheeler, or a stocker quad. What happened was the "woodsman" supposed beginner quad class meant for trailriders became filled with sandbaggers running highly modified quads that would have a been a trailriding joke. Suitable beginner classes are a big obstacle for people getting started in racing. I won't even get into the mini quads right now, as my own kid was stuck in those "buy a win" classes. This could be as simple as redefining woodsman or quad D or whatever you want to call "beginner quad" as stock frame, axle, and a-rms with no big bores or strokers as it should have been in the beginning. You can further help by making it a non-points class, and even a non-sanctioned class. This has been a valuable tool in bringing 3 wheelers to CRA events as they only required CRA card for the CRA 3 Wheeler series, and has resulted in most of our guys getting them anyways.
They key to remember is that the practice track is the gateway to the race addiction, though. Race addicts will spend lots of money. The "I wonder what its like" guys won't. We need to get them to the practice track as painlesly as possible to develop that addiction.
Smith Rd has been mentioned a few times in here as "tried and failed", and I actually think they are the ones to watch. Their first quad practice was a failure after little advance promotion, and most of it on bike forums full of quad haters. Their 2nd one, they decided to go with a prepay deal, and that got about 25, which they decided was sufficient to be a success. That night they made the horrific mistake of announcing there would then be a weekly quad practice. Translation - Now that you guys have busted your butt and twisted arms to make this practice a success, we expect all of you to commit to doing it EVERY WEEK or we will shut it down. That ddnt go over well, and the next one was a flop. They then regrouped and made YET another effort to run quads the last few hours of a SUNDAY bike practice. Bikes could stay and ride the track with them. They had maybe 15 quads (w/trikes). Why are they the ones to watch? They learned to integrate the low quad turnouts into their existing bike practice without much added monetary risk or cost. A Sunday has enough hours to accomodate both groups. If quad turnout is low, it just means more ride time for bikes. They also showed that they are serious and committed to making it happen by not throwing in the towel, and trying new ideas when other methods didn't work. They learned not to saturate their own market, and are talking about a few special weekend practices that include quads that wil be announed well in advance, while continuing their traditional weekday bike practices. They started promoting on facebook instead of relying on a bike forum with more than its share of quad haters to get the info out. They are seeing the advantages of having WEEKEND practices. (I always thought the idea of routing racers to certain tracks by not having weekend practices was a dumb idea.) I believe Smith Road will be successful, and that as faith in their committment slowly gets re-established with quad riders, the numbers will continuously increase over time. This will eventually bring more participants to their races because its sucks trying to learn to ride an MX track by signing up for races.
Woody
PR Addict
Thats the answer that no one was actually giving. If you can honestly say you are +40 riders going bike-only in the same conditions then thats a no brainer.
Again we all know a quad only day doesnt work for a few reasons, you cant dismiss the day being on a nationals weekend, even if it's a handfull of riders when your talking about 8-10 showing up aother 5 is a huge percentage. Also, since the population is so much less than bikes, they are obviously more spread out and becomes harder for people to travel long distances on a weeknight to any track.
I still am all for the idea of open practice for bikes from say 11-5 and allow quads from 3-5 or whatever the case. Typicall the traffic on the track dies down quite a bit towards the end of the day anyways.
Anyways I cant wait to ride/race at these tracks making the effort next year, regardless of the hatred, ruts, dust, drive, long days, whatever the problem.