Where are the Ohio riders at Loretta's?

John250

John250

PR Founding Father
Wow, this thread has got way out of control. Chris Knox, a name I havent heard in a while. Welcome back to D 11. I have always said there are racers, and there are guys that like to ride. Blair, Washel, Knox, myself, are racers. We are all on record of preferring to line it up and race than to go practice all the time. My son, I take him practicing during the week, and sometimes I dont even ride, because it is less hassel for me to just take him for a couple hours quick after I am done with work. To each their own.

Everyone wants to always use the "I cant afford to race" line though. I bet on any given weekend, you can find a bunch of guys with bikes that have $500 wheels on them, $1000 exhaust on them, and other trick parts, you know all so that their bike is faster or runs better. Waste of money. Most guys cant ride a stock MX bike to its potential. Want to make your bike faster, get some suspension work. I've riden my bikes stock for years. I can remember at Kenworthys being able to be in the top 5 coming out of the first corner, and being able to pull people down parsons highway, against guys that would spend lots of money on motor work. Too bad I was never in good shape, lol.

JO made a comment that a race cost 8 times more than a practice day? That comment kind of hit me funny. I would be very curious to know why it would be 8 times more to run a race than a practice day? Still need flaggers, still need an ambulance, still need the water, equipment, and tractors, still need someone taking money and waivers at sign up. What are the things that cost 8 times more?

I am sure when I go to Briar Cliff, I will agree it is an awesome track. From what I am reading here, it is exactly what everyone wants in a track to race on......so that being the case, why in the heck would he not be racing every other weekend. I have heard some on here mention he needs a national........well if the facility is that awesome, why not have some races, according to everyone on here, people would come from every where to race there. Look at Kenworthys, it was the best track in the state, and we would have 700 riders there for a local, with almost full gates, and some classes two gates back in the 80s and 90s. From the sounds of it, DMC and DC on good weather days must be drawing more than most tracks. I think we have been averaging about 20+ in the vet classes the last few races.

The sport is very expensive today. I just think that some people prefer to practice, and I am sure some are very fast, but it is different in a race. I used to LOVE getting on a gate at Kenworthys of almost 40 riders, going wide open down a long ass start straight and hitting the first corner. Then hitting the second straight with bikes every where........there is not better rush for me.
 
nitrofish

nitrofish

PR Addict
For us it's money. On the National level we competed at two events (AATVA) this year. Our expenses not including maintenance parts or anything to do with the quad was 900 bucks per event. The experience was well worth the money, however you also learn real quick that you need more dough to compete (WIN). It is a wealthy persons sport if you are going to win, if you are satisfied with a top 5 finish you can do it for under 1000 bucks a race. So, do we go back? Not this year we simply ran out of the cash. Next year we plan on a couple events, so the question is do we go and aim for that top 5 finish or do I dump another 3 grand in a 50cc engine and go for the win? These same discussions are going on in the ATV national scene as well. The overwhelming response is cash. Expense of the machines and expenses of competing in the events. Locally it aint much different, it costs us more money to race than practice. 200 bucks is our average expense per event again not counting parts. We average 4 races a month, 800 bucks a month. We can practice for under 35 bucks (we live close to briarcliff). We would rather race, there is no substitute for the feeling of racing from the dad side or the boy's side. Open riding (practice) is a blast too, I can actually relax a bit more. We have cut back on local racing for a few reasons. Money. Self explanatory. Time. It is a full day of racing, tack on another day for preperations and clean-up. Frustrations. I still don't get it why the youngins can be towards the end of a night program. I know it is random race order but I find myself less apt to go to the races now not knowing if we are going to stay for a second moto. I won't let the boy (7 yrs) race at midnight, it's not safe. We will continue to race, we will continue to support racing. I don't think any one thing is going to bring the numbers back up, you either race or ya don't. I think for the most part all the promotors do a great job, have nice facilities and do a great job trying to appease everyone and that is never going to happen. As far as tracks being too smooth or easy around these parts to compete on a national level, I'm not sure about that one. I don't race competetively myself anymore, I'm not even any good at being a pro practicer anymore so I will not judge from that aspect. Now, from a dad's point of view. I want smooth, less rutted, non ridiculous jump tracks. Little bikes and little quads do not have 15" of ground clearance to navigate ruts and I want jumps that the kid can do instead of having to roll everything. Remember I am talking about 50s here, the kid aint afraid to jump but he does get frustrated if he gets stuck in a rut. I guess what I'm getting at is the tracks should suit all riders of all skill levels and really lean more toward the beginners and average riders. If you build a pro style track we will not come and neither will the masses. If you are a pro or an aspiring pro you need to build your own track to practice on. If ever we make a go of it I certainly would not use local practice tracks as an excuse to why we get smoked at Lorettas or any national. I will build what we need the practice on, gotta have a practice gate and you have to train. Alot of good points made by everyone, and everyone has there own reasons and you can't argue that. Ok, kid is tugging at my mouse, headin to the cliff for some pro practicing! :)
 
TCracing

TCracing

PR Addict
mxpilot said:
I was going to steer clear of this one, but....

This discussion has been going on for as long as I've been on PR, and before that, trackside at the events.

1. If Chris Knox's sole goal is how to return Ohio to "relevence", encourage the riders that WANT to ... (see original post)

2. The proliferation of practice tracks in Ohio has diluted the field of racers for a LONG time now. Economically, great for ... (see original post)

3. CRA- You all can demonize the CRA all you want, but as others have pointed out and been roundly criticized for....they provide a product that is wanted, and to a larger degree, needed... (see original post)

4. Quality of events. The best quality events will survive only ... (see original post)

5. Tracks aren't tough enough here. See above. Open your own, make it as tough as you want. Then check paragraph 3. Your turnouts won't support your expenses. Plenty of riders here say how they want 6-10 lap motos, big doubles, triples, whoops like a SX, yada yada. The 10-15 riders who would actually show up and ride it to the full extent won't pay for your day, unless you charge $1000 for that thrill. The damage done by turning off 100 more who show up thinking they can do it, find out they can't, and go on to tell 20 people each what a terrible time they had will cost you tenfold. Again, a vilified, but sound business plan that tbe CRA recognizes. Most people just aren't cut out for it, and that's not a bad thing. They're still riding.
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+1, 2 or 3. Wherever this is. I agree! Especially with #5. It's largely based on fun factor. It certainly not much fun for the average Joe to be on a track that is beyond skill level or to get wadded up and heading to the hospital. Not good for the rider, and not good for business for the track owner.

For all the hard core racers I understand nothing beets competing. Doesn't matter if its racing or playing back yard baseball. Still who is to say that while free riding you can't be unofficially racing. Even if its against the clock??? You get more bang for your buck, you can race, ride as much as you desire and leave when you like.
For those that complain about tracks too slow and other riders too slow. Get over yourself, leave others alone. If you are blazing fast great, But trying to put others down or talk smack about tracks doesn't make you faster in any ones eyes and definitely won't make you friendlier. Just remember there is always someone faster than you somewhere just around the corner...

Sorry straying from the topic a little. I think other states are becoming more involved therefore producing more competition. Back in the day Ohio was more of a pioneering State in the contribution to MX. Now that it is more widespread the percentages are bound to drop. Ohio has plenty of fast riders And produces lots of licensed Pro's. The road to LL's has just gotten tougher. Simple as that.

I
 
N

Notorious t.o.d.

PR Member
I guess I would expect the typical local track to sort of fit a typical bell curve of riders. If most of the local riders are good C or medium B level riders then the track would do best financially to have a track that those riders love and feel great about. There will be riders who are both less and more experienced but they should be smaller in number than the middle of the Bell curve. As my son became a better B rider there were just some tracks that we would not go practice at because nothing was gained or improved upon by riding there.

There were also sometimes issues of dangerous situations being created because sometimes you would have 50s and 65s out there with big bikes. I recall one time Dan coming off the track literally almost shaking. He was doing a lap at good B rider speed and hit a fairly big double and jumped right over a kid on a 50. That was really scary. We immediately went to the person running practice and told them this was no good and very dangerous. Their reply was "well it is just practice...". We told them that B riders practice at a different pace from 50 riders and they should separate into groups. They didn't want to change. We then packed up and left, never to practice there again even though it was one of the closest tracks to home.

I think one of the best ways to improve is to ride national caliber tracks as much as you can. Riding tracks like Budds Creek, Broome Tioga, Redbud, Steel City, High Point, Pleasure Valley does a lot to improve skills, and build confidence.

The other thing is to improve you need to practice the basics and be willing to work on the things you are not so good at. Most people rarely or never practice starts, yet that is one of the most important parts of any race. People tend to naturally le to ride and do or practice what they are already good at doing. Like perhaps hitting a big jump when they should be working on corner speed. To improve work on what you are not good at, not just what you can do well all ready.

I remember being at Dirtworld when Dan was in C and he and his friend were riding around the 8 pack each lap. I called him over and told him if he rode around those once more we were going home. I told him you have to do them in a race so you better learn to do them. I did some timing of a good C rider going through them doubling them vs his rolling each one. It was enough time difference that I told him he was losing the distance from the finish line to the first corner every lap. It was probably about 300-350 feet in distance. I told him to start by jumping the first or last double, whichever he felt more comfortable with doing. Then add another and another until he could double all the way through on the inside. He got this down before we left but could still improve a lot more. That came with time and some more practice until he could do them inside or outside on any line through them. Now it became a place where he could even pass people. Sometimes riders need to understand where hey are losing time on the track. And sometimes they need to be pushed a bit!

Lastly, I think it is good if each track tries to have a signature feature that the better riders like to do and that the crowd loves to watch. The best example I can think of was the huge uphill that Big Game had the first year. Dan loved to hit that jump. It was like 4th gear pinned on his RM 250 and I think the face was about 9 feet tall. A lot of people used to just come to the races just to watch people jump that jump. Never did figure why they took it out the next year.
 
GeorgiePorgie

GeorgiePorgie

PR Founding Father
John250: 8x more: He has to pay more flaggers; a stupid announcer (to talk); have his PA system up and running (more fuel); he had some Bands; trophy girl entertainment; 50 gazillion miles of Banner to line the track; refacing/SUPER prepping the entire track (more fuel); awards. Prep saturday for practice, addditional prep saturday evening and more sunday morning. And the expected less rider turnout. (Which I do believe the turnout will actually be huge. How can you not want to race a great planned event at a place that isn't racing every weekend. I'm sure alot more as well.
 
washel157

washel157

PR Addict
I`m excited for the bcliff race. I never missed one when he ran a series a few years ago and won`t miss this one. By saying this I hope that I will be proved wrong but I think Jeremy will have a bigger turnout for the open practice than the race itself. Just sayin, I hope Im wrong.
 
John250

John250

PR Founding Father
GeorgiePorgie said:
John250: 8x more: He has to pay more flaggers; a stupid announcer (to talk); have his PA system up and running (more fuel); he had some Bands; trophy girl entertainment; 50 gazillion miles of Banner to line the track; refacing/SUPER prepping the entire track (more fuel); awards. Prep saturday for practice, addditional prep saturday evening and more sunday morning. And the expected less rider turnout. (Which I do believe the turnout will actually be huge. How can you not want to race a great planned event at a place that isn't racing every weekend. I'm sure alot more as well.
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Use the kenworthys approach. It was a for profit track, but also had a club. The club workers helped with the track, and in return got to practice at the facility. They were required to work something like 15 or 20 hours a month. And there were plenty of takers. So no additional cost. They had some organizations volunteer for flaggers, and he made a donation to the cause. It worked. If you use the thinking on this board, on a race day, with a few less riders, and less laps being made on the track, you would actually have less prep needed during the day, this taking less fuel during the day. Right now he charges $25 to ride all day. At a race, it is $25 per class, and guys would ride multiple classes, so you would double the money coming in from some of the same guys paying only $25 now. Practice days, he charges $0 for spectators. Race day, he would charge $10 a head to get in from riders and anyone with them (maybe 5 and under free). So the numbers are not adding up to me. My math makes me think you could make more money having a race.
 
BanTonic

BanTonic

PR Addict
Looks like that Semics guy really knows how to ride! lol!! :D
1-1-1 in the 50+ NICE!! :D



Calm down,I know who he is,just adding a little humor!!! :p
 
loneranger171

loneranger171

PR Addict
And I've seen him riding at a Ohio track...besides his own track he's been caught putting laps in at beans bike park!! No pool table at beans that's for sure
 
mblair

mblair

PR Founding Father
Jon Agin put in another top 10 finish in the ultra competitive 40+ class! Congrads Jon! i can guarantee that Jon was still going strong at the end of his motos! there aren't allot of riders i know in better shape than him.
 
#23_Racing

#23_Racing

PR Addict
GeorgiePorgie said:
Oh yes they're making so much cash promoters are burning it.

Promoters are financing equipment. They're paying 100+ an hour on race day for terrible EMT crews. They're dumping tons and tons of diesel fuel into those financed out pieces of equipment.

Who the eff is making money as a promoter ??? Coombs. Duh. National circuits raking in 800k on Saturday alone. Our local promoters won't clear 800k in 50 years!!!!


And if you didn't already know ALL male nurses are homos. Flllaammiiingg. And they still get paid the same whether or not the local market is saturated with them. Sorry everyone's cuttin grass and plowin snow. Join the gay side! Wrist hookin and all if you don't want under cut. No pun intended. My opinions don't mean jack. And I could careless if you think they do or not.

Where the is Barrington. How's he missin out on all the fun ????
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Show me a promoter that stops in a gas station and only puts $20 in his car or tells their kid there will be no vacation this year because they are just that broke. They are making some kinda money or they wouldnt be doing it for long. I never said anything about you being a homo you brought that one up yourself. If you get so bent out of shape every time someone says male nurse then I guess you need to find a new line of work or get thicker skin. Is Pyma loosing money? Is Melvern loosing money? Hell no and if they where they would of shut down by now because they wouldnt have money to run. They are paying for rented equipment and fuel some how. Geesh Georde its getting sickning even reading your posts anymore.
 
N

Notorious t.o.d.

PR Member
John, I think you are not taking into account all the costs of having a race. Specifically, the cost of having EMS onsite during a race. I don't recall tracks having EMS onsite for practice. Maybe things have changed or maybe they would have it for a large publicized ride day, but not typical practice.

Also, there is the cost of the trophies being given out each race. These trophies are mostly larger and more expensive than my daughter got for playing a whole season of high school volleyball. Seems everyone thinks the deserve a trophy almost just for showing up to race.

You have to have flaggers, a lot more than for practice. And hopefully they know what they as flaggers are supposed to do. But that is another topic! You also have to have people running sign up and handing out awards. And you have to have at least 2 scorekeepers and an announcer. If you can get all these people for free good for you I guess. I suspect most want to be paid for their long day!
 
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