ddmx488
PR Addict
You won't find one. haha
Villipoto's Pass on yellow
- Thread starter Suburban Cowboyz
- Start date
You won't find one. haha
GeorgiePorgie
PR Founding Father
Double D
PR Founding Father
I dont see what the fuss was about. The track worker holding the red cross flag was standing on the last jump. RV passed him on the last jump. They cant pass under a red cross. The end.
You could argue that Stewie should have held an inside line down that section of the track so RV couldnt get a tire on the inside of him in that next corner. But on the other side the rules say RV can pass there so why hold the line?
No respect for RV.
You could argue that Stewie should have held an inside line down that section of the track so RV couldnt get a tire on the inside of him in that next corner. But on the other side the rules say RV can pass there so why hold the line?
No respect for RV.
GeorgiePorgie
PR Founding Father
He meant: But. . .RV can't pass. . .why hold the line?
Correct. Sometimes my brain goes faster than my fingers!
TPC
PR Member
I don't see what the big fuss is all about. It is clear on the video reply...red flag, red flag, yellow flag, yellow flag...RV did not make the pass until AFTER the last yellow flag...perfectly legal!!!
watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpf30UfBWWw&feature=youtu.be
replay segment begins at 12:00
first red flag is at 12:06
second red flag is at 12:20 RV is still behind JS
first yellow flag is at 12:21 RV is still behind JS
second yellow flag is at 12:22 JS and RV are both past it and they are side by side. Pass is not made until they are past the yellow...perfectly legal!!!
I also found this at Racer X
..."After the triple came a set of rollers. By then the yellow flags were out (once a rider passes the area with the flashing red light or red cross flag, and then rides under a yellow, they revert to yellow flag rules). Passing is not illegal under yellow flags, but the riders must “proceed with extreme caution.” Since the downed rider, Bobby Kiniry, was already up and restarting his bike, there wasn’t much inherent danger in that section, so when Villopoto edged further up alongside Stewart, and then made the pass in the next corner, he was not in violation of the rules, because he passed under the yellow (which is legal)."...
watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpf30UfBWWw&feature=youtu.be
replay segment begins at 12:00
first red flag is at 12:06
second red flag is at 12:20 RV is still behind JS
first yellow flag is at 12:21 RV is still behind JS
second yellow flag is at 12:22 JS and RV are both past it and they are side by side. Pass is not made until they are past the yellow...perfectly legal!!!
I also found this at Racer X
..."After the triple came a set of rollers. By then the yellow flags were out (once a rider passes the area with the flashing red light or red cross flag, and then rides under a yellow, they revert to yellow flag rules). Passing is not illegal under yellow flags, but the riders must “proceed with extreme caution.” Since the downed rider, Bobby Kiniry, was already up and restarting his bike, there wasn’t much inherent danger in that section, so when Villopoto edged further up alongside Stewart, and then made the pass in the next corner, he was not in violation of the rules, because he passed under the yellow (which is legal)."...
this may change an opinion or two. js& go pro footage before red flag and after staggered start.
http://www.vitalmx.com/videos/member/GoPro-HD-James-Stewart-Main-Event-2013-Monster-Energy-Supercross-from-St-Louis,8540/GuyB,64
http://www.vitalmx.com/videos/member/GoPro-HD-James-Stewart-Main-Event-2013-Monster-Energy-Supercross-from-St-Louis,8540/GuyB,64
RocketRobin
PR Founding Father
Here's a link to various gopro footages from the race this week. Seems like it was bad time for Villopoto to make the pass looking at Stewarts helmet cam footage in my eyes. There is a white Red Cross flag out at the beginning of the yellows still, which means no passing or advancing until after the down rider area, and they hadn't cleared the rider in the corner yet.
http://www.racerxonline.com/2013/03/05/gopro-footage-from-st-louis
http://www.racerxonline.com/2013/03/05/gopro-footage-from-st-louis
Elliott4179
PR Addict
Copied this from Racerx, sounds like we hit a nerve.
On Sunday after the St. Louis Supercross, we attempted to clear up the very murky red cross flag/yellow light situation in St. Louis.
It helped a bit, but no doubt, the fires continued to rage all week. Not everyone agrees with the decision, in fact, it seems like many more people disagree with it than agree. And questions remain. Why was Ryan Villopoto not penalized after the race for his first infraction? Do red flags cancel yellow flags? On it goes. I called the AMA’s Kevin Crowther again to get clarification. At this point, the decision is done and Crowther (and the FIM’s John Gallagher) made their decision based on the video evidence they had. That’s pretty much all he had left to say on this specific incident.
“We believe the decision we made was right and we’re not going to go back on that decision,” he said. “But what we have learned, as we always do in these situations, is that you look at some of the rules we have in place and see if you can improve them.”
From what I surmise, the general confusion of the situation—giving the riders two conflicting flags (yellow and red cross) at the same time—was part of the decision. All of the riders involved were put in a tough spot seeing two different flags at the same time. Was that a red cross “no passing zone” or a yellow flag “use caution but you can pass” zone? Obviously, they decided the pass was okay, but for certain, this race will result in a fresh look at the rulebook and how the flags and lights work, and also, the red flag staggered restart. If you look through the rulebook, you’ll find several parts of this situation undefined (does the red cross flag cancel the yellow? Does the yellow cancel the red cross?). They're going to have to go through the book with a fine toothed comb to eliminate some of those gray areas.
But they won’t ban passing under the yellow flag. Crowther searched the SX rulebook all the way back to 1997, and passing has been allowed under yellow the whole time. He says that supercross is different from regular, local motocross races (which do not allow passing under the yellow). For one, lapped traffic is a much bigger factor on a short supercross track, and there would be problems if you reached a lapper and a no-pass situation at the same time. Also, the yellow flags come out far more often in the tight confines. From tumbled Tuff Blocks to bikes off the side of the track, Crowther says yellow flags often come out 20 times per race, so if you put riders into no-passing situations that often, it would wreak havoc on the race. If there’s a real safety issue, that’s why they have the red cross flag, but not every situation is that extreme. They purposely build in two layers—the yellow caution flag and the red-cross no passing flag—so different situations can be addressed.
One more thing Crowther wanted to make perfectly clear: “I can tell you that there is no way in hell we would ever let any rider, team or sponsor influence a decision,” says Crowther, who points out that he is a full-time employee of the AMA. “We are an independent sanctioning body. That’s why we are there. For us, the rules are the same no matter if it’s Ryan Villopoto or Adam Enticknap.”
On Sunday after the St. Louis Supercross, we attempted to clear up the very murky red cross flag/yellow light situation in St. Louis.
It helped a bit, but no doubt, the fires continued to rage all week. Not everyone agrees with the decision, in fact, it seems like many more people disagree with it than agree. And questions remain. Why was Ryan Villopoto not penalized after the race for his first infraction? Do red flags cancel yellow flags? On it goes. I called the AMA’s Kevin Crowther again to get clarification. At this point, the decision is done and Crowther (and the FIM’s John Gallagher) made their decision based on the video evidence they had. That’s pretty much all he had left to say on this specific incident.
“We believe the decision we made was right and we’re not going to go back on that decision,” he said. “But what we have learned, as we always do in these situations, is that you look at some of the rules we have in place and see if you can improve them.”
From what I surmise, the general confusion of the situation—giving the riders two conflicting flags (yellow and red cross) at the same time—was part of the decision. All of the riders involved were put in a tough spot seeing two different flags at the same time. Was that a red cross “no passing zone” or a yellow flag “use caution but you can pass” zone? Obviously, they decided the pass was okay, but for certain, this race will result in a fresh look at the rulebook and how the flags and lights work, and also, the red flag staggered restart. If you look through the rulebook, you’ll find several parts of this situation undefined (does the red cross flag cancel the yellow? Does the yellow cancel the red cross?). They're going to have to go through the book with a fine toothed comb to eliminate some of those gray areas.
But they won’t ban passing under the yellow flag. Crowther searched the SX rulebook all the way back to 1997, and passing has been allowed under yellow the whole time. He says that supercross is different from regular, local motocross races (which do not allow passing under the yellow). For one, lapped traffic is a much bigger factor on a short supercross track, and there would be problems if you reached a lapper and a no-pass situation at the same time. Also, the yellow flags come out far more often in the tight confines. From tumbled Tuff Blocks to bikes off the side of the track, Crowther says yellow flags often come out 20 times per race, so if you put riders into no-passing situations that often, it would wreak havoc on the race. If there’s a real safety issue, that’s why they have the red cross flag, but not every situation is that extreme. They purposely build in two layers—the yellow caution flag and the red-cross no passing flag—so different situations can be addressed.
One more thing Crowther wanted to make perfectly clear: “I can tell you that there is no way in hell we would ever let any rider, team or sponsor influence a decision,” says Crowther, who points out that he is a full-time employee of the AMA. “We are an independent sanctioning body. That’s why we are there. For us, the rules are the same no matter if it’s Ryan Villopoto or Adam Enticknap.”
barrington314
PR Elite
The whole red cross, yellow flag issue is peanuts. The real issue at hand is, why was RV penalized on the restart instead of finishing position? In an interview RV said something like " they were going to penalize me after the race but I asked if I could just take the penalty on the restart". So they let the riders decide how to penalize themselves.
RocketRobin
PR Founding Father
I think that there is a real issue when you have both Red Cross flag and yellow flag together in the same section as in this case. If the Red Cross flag is there at all, there should be a no passing zone and penalties levied, which it was......... the whole restart vs end of race issue is another issue on a separate Red Light incident.
They should implement a new rule as suggested somewhere on Racer X, you single everything and no passing until you get to a Green Flag / Green Light on the track after a Red Cross / Red Light........ punishment is you get last place if you pass in that zone. No more questions would ever be raised on this issue. End the controversy by implementing strong rules in favor of downed rider safety!
They should implement a new rule as suggested somewhere on Racer X, you single everything and no passing until you get to a Green Flag / Green Light on the track after a Red Cross / Red Light........ punishment is you get last place if you pass in that zone. No more questions would ever be raised on this issue. End the controversy by implementing strong rules in favor of downed rider safety!
TCracing
PR Addict
I call BS on the whole deal. Which flag cancels out which flag? WTF! What a lame excuse for BS call. Plain and simple "RED" trumps yellow, blue, Green. (Monster green, Not so much)! If there are two flags up common sense says the one with the most weight takes precedence. That whole response from the AMA official "if that is what he said" is just ridiculous and dishonorable.
Even if the other RED cross flag had not been out I still say its IFFY! A rider should not be Jockeying for position "setting up or attempting to pass" regardless until they are clear of the incident. If this is your mentality and lack of respect for the flags and the safety of other People. I say your an A$$. Villipoto or anyone performing in this character may win the race, but what have they lost in the long run?
Even if the other RED cross flag had not been out I still say its IFFY! A rider should not be Jockeying for position "setting up or attempting to pass" regardless until they are clear of the incident. If this is your mentality and lack of respect for the flags and the safety of other People. I say your an A$$. Villipoto or anyone performing in this character may win the race, but what have they lost in the long run?
RocketRobin
PR Founding Father
That's what I think when I see a Red Cross flag mixed in with all the Yellows ----- NO PASSING. Red Cross should trump the yellows and they should just wait..... after all Villopoto would have been able to get by anyway, it's not like it was the last lap of the entire race. They need a rule with definite consequences for anyone that violates it.......
hershey
PR Elite
GeorgiePorgie
PR Founding Father
someone sitting stationary on the track is a hazard.
What do you think the flaggers get paid? And how many if them know the rulebook regarding yellows? Since the beginning if time mx has had poor quality uneducated flag staff.