double sanctioning

If 30 guys show up with electric bikes, should we make a class for them? If 30 show up on one ear donkeys????
It should not and can not be "here I am, make a class for me". Look at the rules and see where you fit in. It is not the rules job to bend for you.
I believe we have way to many classes already. If you can produce 30 trikes, e-bikes or donkeys. Great. Go find a sanctioning body that has a class for you. Saying its a bad business decision to turn away 30 is just not true if it makes the current customer base of 200 happy.
 
I on the other hand don't give a flying f*ck who runs, what runs, or how many run. Just bring your toys out to have some fun!!

Maybe some more participants would get us back down to $20 practice fees!
 
If you give me 30 go carts Im turning them loose. 30 guys on Kx500s Im turning them loose. If I can get 30 guys to consisitently show up, how do argue with that, when we cant get 30 vets to show up?

Heck 30 guys with possible familys, thats half of a pymtuning race. 30 guys is probably 10% of the opener this past weekend. That could be 100 people through the gate and maybe 30-60 entries by the time we think up a second class for them. thats a minimum of $1050, that covers the insurance or a squad........stop living on the soap box, reality is laughing you by.
 
ck1racerx said:
If 30 guys show up with electric bikes, should we make a class for them? If 30 show up on one ear donkeys????
It should not and can not be "here I am, make a class for me". Look at the rules and see where you fit in. It is not the rules job to bend for you.
I believe we have way to many classes already. If you can produce 30 trikes, e-bikes or donkeys. Great. Go find a sanctioning body that has a class for you. Saying its a bad business decision to turn away 30 is just not true if it makes the current customer base of 200 happy.
Click to expand...
Missing the point.

They have a class. Called 3 wheelers that nobody runs. If you want to be user friendly invite the outcasts every once in a while you jackass.
 
Guys, this is what is killing racing. People do not want to pay $10 per person to get in the gate. $25 per class to sign up and then get 10min of track time. They will pay $25 and practice all they want for 6 hours. If they don't do that because practice sucks (see Alan Iverson) then they will hunt out other tracks that offer more track time or they quit and play tennis.
Nothing against trikes but it's just another class that the guys that choose a piece of equipment that fit in the rules have to set through.
The Daytona 500 is going to be cut down to the Daytona 50 because all the people in the stands want to race so they are adding 29 other classes because they have money that can pay for insurance. Oh and the 50 miles that is staying will be broke up into two segments and Jimmy Johnson, Jeff Gordan and the rest have to set around and watch Billy Bob do a few laps in his Nova.
Now there is a great business plan.
 
Ck1racerx very well said. 600 racers on a weekly basis was standard in D6. 45 or so classes ( bikes, no quads at all). Long long days and maybe 13 laps total for the day for a one class then "poof" nobody showed. Why? Probably became too long a day for day trippers (long,hot day I'm June out of a pickup), among other things in 2010-2011. It's never come back.

Careful what you wish for.........

Went to the opening day of
PAMX racing at Doublin Gap. Close track, but it's not on my list, but I wanted to race and the turnout was poor.

Now all the promoters are affiliated with the AMA and make you buy a second organization card ( like PAMX) and they wonder why participation is so off.

I had two friends drive 3 hours more to Malvern just to race and get away from the " bullshit" cards. One made a small stink on FB because he thought that he had to buy another card along with the AMA card at Malvern, but it wasn't and he was cool with the place
 
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I heard doubling gap had a huge turnout.....Are we talking like this past weekend? If so, Id like to know who's telling the truth here. you or Jeff Cernics? How many is a poor turnout?
 
ck1racerx said:
Guys, this is what is killing racing. People do not want to pay $10 per person to get in the gate. $25 per class to sign up and then get 10min of track time. They will pay $25 and practice all they want for 6 hours. If they don't do that because practice sucks (see Alan Iverson) then they will hunt out other tracks that offer more track time or they quit and play tennis.
Nothing against trikes but it's just another class that the guys that choose a piece of equipment that fit in the rules have to set through.
The Daytona 500 is going to be cut down to the Daytona 50 because all the people in the stands want to race so they are adding 29 other classes because they have money that can pay for insurance. Oh and the 50 miles that is staying will be broke up into two segments and Jimmy Johnson, Jeff Gordan and the rest have to set around and watch Billy Bob do a few laps in his Nova.
Now there is a great business plan.
Click to expand...

When the CKMA launches, I expect free memberships, and grand banquet (like at taj mahal), 10 classes with a maximum number of entries of 400, 30 minute motos, and the riders don't pay gate fees. Just think you have a chance to please all 42 dudes that still ride that are your age and still think 1985 is rad. Good luck buddy.
 
Here is the results. Look for yourself.
On my FB page Jeff stated the reason they had the attendance they had was because of 15 (that's his words) tracks and practice facilities running within 150 miles. I posted the largest class, 250 c. 22 entries for the start of a series EVERYONE thought the same as me. You can surf and see what they had. Get back to me and tell me if you think this is good or bad, numbers wise

I think it's bad for the start of a series, but you be the judge.


http://live.tracksideresults.com/doublin/class.asp?s=17&c=59&e=151
 
JO. Never said anything about your membership. Or banquet. $10 gate fee and $25 class fee are fine if I get my money's worth. I have been too 400,000 races and never seen a max on signups. Yes, promoters and track have to make money to stay open. I'm all for you making as much money as you can but I care more about the future of motocross RACING. It does not have to be 10 classes, but it also does not need to be 40. The OMA decision to run quads on Sat and bikes on Sunday is a huge step in the right direction. Plus, if it does not work then it can be changed back. But you don't know until you try.
And 1985 was rad. 88 was better.
Oh. And the 42 old guys that still ride is more then the 30 that ride trikes. And they ride more then one class so you should be on my side on this. Welcome to the dark side, we have cookies.
 
Just scanned s quick look on my phone coming back from Philly ( no I'm not driving). And it looks like 200, 205 maybe. That's not good.

No racing in WV, western Pa, or NY. They had a large area to pull racers from. From the center of pa to Malvern, all if WV and Western NY. Budd's and E-town where 3hours away or more
 
31 classes and about 200 riders equals no real fun in most classes. Less than 7 guys on a track made for 40.

Exciting.

Just sucks. Been at it since 1977 and this is the worst it's ever been.

Guys are going to go do something else. MX Racing is about more than a 8 minute moto with 7 guys.

That's speedway racing numbers.........
 
ck1racerx said:
If 30 guys show up with electric bikes, should we make a class for them? If 30 show up on one ear donkeys????
It should not and can not be "here I am, make a class for me". Look at the rules and see where you fit in. It is not the rules job to bend for you.
I believe we have way to many classes already. If you can produce 30 trikes, e-bikes or donkeys. Great. Go find a sanctioning body that has a class for you. Saying its a bad business decision to turn away 30 is just not true if it makes the current customer base of 200 happy.
Click to expand...

I guess the other potential mistake a promoter could make would be to make business decisions based on an assumption that one loud mouth in a cliquie message forum speaks for his entire ridership. I'm sure if they've been in business a while they can easily distinguish a message forum blabbermouth from supporters with realistic business perspective.

I told you before, we have more welcome invites than we can fulfill so we don't race where we are not wanted, whether its the promoter or his riders, though we never experienced that from other riders before. We have a sanctioning body that has always included us, and an 18 year relationship with them. In the last 5 years, our riders have averaged bringing over $20,000 a year in revenue to the sanction, its promoters, and other unsanctioned promoters, or an AM promoter running exhibition classes. Its a good thing promoters have free business advisers like you on Pitracer to advise them to shove any portion of that away so that a couple of selfish purists can shorten their race day by 20 minutes. Realistically, they could probably benefit buy bringing 30 new riders on new machines, if it resulted in 30 old selfish riders leaving, who discourage new, non-purist riders from ever coming.
 
honda907 said:
Here is the results. Look for yourself.
On my FB page Jeff stated the reason they had the attendance they had was because of 15 (that's his words) tracks and practice facilities running within 150 miles. I posted the largest class, 250 c. 22 entries for the start of a series EVERYONE thought the same as me. You can surf and see what they had. Get back to me and tell me if you think this is good or bad, numbers wise

I think it's bad for the start of a series, but you be the judge.


http://live.tracksideresults.com/doublin/class.asp?s=17&c=59&e=151
Click to expand...
Yes that turnout is nowhere near what I was told. I wouldn't run that event next time if it were that low, just run practice. Supply and demand. The cost of doing a race right has pushed the break even up to about that point, and you cant even grow grass without profit. This point goes to Mr. Lykens on the PAMX opener.
 
ck1racerx said:
JO. Never said anything about your membership. Or banquet. $10 gate fee and $25 class fee are fine if I get my money's worth. I have been too 400,000 races and never seen a max on signups. Yes, promoters and track have to make money to stay open. I'm all for you making as much money as you can but I care more about the future of motocross RACING. It does not have to be 10 classes, but it also does not need to be 40. The OMA decision to run quads on Sat and bikes on Sunday is a huge step in the right direction. Plus, if it does not work then it can be changed back. But you don't know until you try.
And 1985 was rad. 88 was better.
Oh. And the 42 old guys that still ride is more then the 30 that ride trikes. And they ride more then one class so you should be on my side on this. Welcome to the dark side, we have cookies.
Click to expand...

Soft batch or the crunchy cookies that were in the oven 5 minutes too long? You didn't have to mention "my banquet", its not 'My banquet", its the OMA Banquet, regardless, I'm playing soap box hero, nothing is sacred and nothing is safe, These are my demands as soap box hero. Now go out and make my dream moto fantasy: CKMA. Pipe dreams are temporary, reality is forever.

Here's an idea, give me $10,000 grand to put on a race, and I will run a 5 eared donkey class, hodaka's only, tricycle beginners, and big wheel expert complete with badass downhill wooden ramp section. You guys have no risk, that's why you can arm chair quarterback on the internet and sound like experts. If I hand you 5-6 grand months in advance to gamble on the weather, other events going on within 250 miles, peoples personal economics, and just plain luck.....all to pick the perfect date to eek out the best event possible, are you going to take the unproven road?......or take safer route that at least has a break even chance at working? ie how we are doing it now.

Editors note: I'm going to burn down the soapbox.....(use the office space voice)
 
Hey....watch the 1985 comments! I graduated that year!

I must admit, racing isnt as fun racing just a handful of guys. The biggest reason I like the LL stuff is the regionals are packed and fun. You get friday practice and 3 motos per class and your out by 3pm sunday. Lots of seat time with full gates.

Local racing has turned into 16 hour days for 12 laps and one practice. It just isnt worth it as much as it used to be. Im not sure there is a solution that works for both the promoter and those who feel the way I do about it.
 
Yeah, I'm with hershey. Watch the 1985 comments. That's the year I was born! Hershey you old bastard you! Lol.
 
We went to Malvern over the weekend and had a ball. Gates were almost full in our class, track was sweet after the freeze(in the afternoon), but the best part was they ran all the quads first and then all the bikes. What a brilliant idea....Bravo boys Bravo!
 
Thank you BruarcliffMX. So we are on the same page about numbers.

The original title to this post was about double sanctions. Most consider a PAMX or MDRA another bull crap card and there is a high resistance to pay that. Very high. The numbers prove it the last few years. Just as I have shown....

On another board on D6, people had the same excuses as to why it would work. "Its only 25 bucks!"; "if your racing and can't afford it, you shouldn't race!"and so on and so forth. Very similar responses like back in 2009. Everyone thought this sport would survive the gas prices, the recession, the BS card, "lead gate"for minis and everything else that went in 2009. It has, but it's not healthy.....

Those BS cards have always been promoted as "for the rider" cards for banquets and the like. I'm here to say it doesn't work. I think most believe it is another way to charge the rider to pay for increased cost that the promoter has. I don't know. That's what I have heard since they have been implemented around here. It kills it for the casual racers that race 6 times a year, although that is just one problem among many more, but I'll stay on topic

You have to remember that forums like this, or even talking to riders at the track, your not going to get the full picture. Not unless you talk to "Johm Q Average in 18th place in the C class. Those are the guys that grow our sport. They want to know what that $25 dollar card does for them. Most do not. Those guys aren't on here voicing their opinion. They may read, but the aren't hardcore enough , or knowledgeable enough to reply to the debate. And if it's going to a banquet and they don't intend to do the series, what value is it to them?

Talking to these people at the track and you will find solutions to these problems because they are the backbone of our sport and your best base of customers. The customer that gets few awards, if any, racing and brings their buddies to the sport

Find ways to please these people, and they won't go practicing at riding parks. They will experience MX as it was intended to be: a fantastic sport, rich in history, and camaraderie with other like minded guys( and gals)

Dude, I've been at this a long time, my family owned shops, and I've seen a lot since I started going as a kid in 1971 to watch. I tried to do a big one day grass track MX last year, and I know what you guys go through. Lots of bureaucratic red tape on the local and federal level. I gave up. Too much to risk. I know what your saying. Most don't know. As a matter of fact, I bet my house and business that less than 5% know what you go through to put on an event in this land today. Someone, like the AMA or you as promoters need to be proactive.

Well , the AMA isn't. We can mostly agree on this.
 
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